Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?
#11
(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: And there is no need to have a saint to be the progenitor...
You know the question of this thread.

There is a need if you don't want souls in Hell.

(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: I was giving an example of how the damned soul's existence isn't worthless just because he is damned at the end of his mortal life, but one can think of others.
I didn't say anything about worthless, the OP (and myself also very clearly) are talking about damnation, not 'worth' ???

(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: God creates the soul but with our involvement.  Human free will is involved in the creation of a new soul, and for God to prevent that would be interfering with our free will.  That's why he allows babies to be conceived who are later murdered in utero by their mothers.

Him deciding (hypothetically) to only populate human bodies with the souls of saints is not a violation of free will, any more than populating a single body with the soul of a saint is a violation of free will.

If he can create one soul that will go to heaven (and he has and does), and that is not a violation of Augustine's free will to have created his soul thusly, why not all souls this way? You're stating what you wish to 'prove' by simply saying 'that's a violation of free will' ...how so?
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#12
We can never fully understand the mind of God and why He does stuff.  When I try and get my head around the size of the universe, and fail miserably, then I realise that you might as well just accept that whatever way God's way is, is the way it is going to be.

Suffice it to say that he does create souls who go to Hell.  Fatima backs this up and Fatima is itself backed up by the greatest publicly witnessed miracle since the parting of the Red Sea.

Just try and be one of the people who avoids ending up there.
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#13
(02-14-2010, 05:13 AM)ggreg Wrote: We can never fully understand the mind of God and why He does stuff.  When I try and get my head around the size of the universe, and fail miserably, then I realise that you might as well just accept that whatever way God's way is, is the way it is going to be.

This is pretty much where I've left this conundrum in my head for over a decade. I don't get it, I don't know if I ever will, but it's God and that's the way He does it.
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#14
(02-14-2010, 04:37 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: And there is no need to have a saint to be the progenitor...
You know the question of this thread.

There is a need if you don't want souls in Hell.

No, that's not true.  If you don't want souls in hell, you give them a way to avoid it and hope they do the right thing.  That's what God did.

Quote:
(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: I was giving an example of how the damned soul's existence isn't worthless just because he is damned at the end of his mortal life, but one can think of others.
I didn't say anything about worthless, the OP (and myself also very clearly) are talking about damnation, not 'worth' ???

No, the question was: "Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?" and my answer is: "because it has worth".  God makes something that has value, even if it ends up damned.  Why wash your face if it will just get dirty again?  Well, because washing one's face has value - it reduces illness, makes one feel better, reduces the need for clearasil.

So, the answer is to the question as asked: God makes souls that are damned because they have worth before they are damned.  Only one way is in pro-creation.  The Devil was created as an angel, and he is damned, but he still has worth as "Satan" - the adversary, the accuser of man, the REAL devil's advocate who in justice points out constantly at our crappy nature.  God also uses him to try and test us and harden us as in the Book of Job.

Note that evil is not necessary, but it exists, and God makes use of what worth it has: this is a sign of contradiction, that the immense evil of deicide is used for our salvation.

Quote:
(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: God creates the soul but with our involvement.  Human free will is involved in the creation of a new soul, and for God to prevent that would be interfering with our free will.  That's why he allows babies to be conceived who are later murdered in utero by their mothers.

Him deciding (hypothetically) to only populate human bodies with the souls of saints is not a violation of free will, any more than populating a single body with the soul of a saint is a violation of free will.

Well, yes, populating a single body purposefully with the soul of  a saint is a violation of free will because that soul is predestined to heaven by definition of being a saint before he lived, and that's not what happens.  Mary was not pre-destined to be the BVM; God knew she would, but she could still have said no.  That would not have been a sin on her part violating her Immaculate Conception because she was asked by God, and not commanded by God.

There is a difference between predestination and omniscience.  Predestination means God creates the outcome, omniscience means God knows the outcome.

Quote:If he can create one soul that will go to heaven (and he has and does), and that is not a violation of Augustine's free will to have created his soul thusly, why not all souls this way? You're stating what you wish to 'prove' by simply saying 'that's a violation of free will' ...how so?
[/quote]

Well, let's try looking at this using induction.

The first humans were Adam and Eve.  To truly give them free will and a free choice, God had to let them pick to eat the forbidden fruit or not.  They had to make a choice to be obedient or to sin.  If God made them Saints beforehand, they would have had no choice to pick the fruit or not, therefore they would not have had free will.

Assuming that seems logical, the next step is the effects of Original Sin - we have a propensity to sin.  Or, if you like, we are given the same opportunity as Adam and Eve - every day we are offered different forbidden fruits to accept or reject.  If God didn't allow us this choice, then we would not be as free as Adam and Eve which, among other things, would be unjust.  Therefore, God gives us all the choice to take forbidden fruit or not.  And to our children, and to our children's children.

So if you want to refute this, we have to go back to the first step and ask: why would God create Adam and Eve if He knew they would Fall?  because it is their fall that causes hell for human souls to exist in the first place.  And the answer, for me anyhow, is because He gave them the choice to love Him freely since Love that is not freely given is not really love.  It is a quid pro quo.  It is compulsed or engineered in, and has no authentic value.
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#15
Think abaout the hell as the place of one's choice.

When one dies God ask everyone: do you want a place where I am, but there is no sex, no privileges, no personal success; and if one answers: I want sex, privileges, success, the the Adversary offers all of that. And in the world of the Adversary the only difference from the present world is that not only Americans has the right and power to napalm Vietnamese or bomb innocent Iraqis od Afghans, but next month the Vietnamese napalm the Americans and the Afghans bomb the American children

The hell is the price for the free choice. We shall deny the world, so that we will chose God and His values.
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#16
Well you don't get sex or privileges in Hell.  You just burn and are tortured by demons for eternity.  So why once people died and God gave them a choice (which he does not) would they choose suffering if they've tried to avoid suffering in this life.

Once you are dead there are no choices.  You make the choices in this life.
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#17
I've been thinking about this recently. I really think Hell is eternally part of the price Our Lord was willing to pay for those that will be saved. There was no other way to create persons with a free will than to let all of them choose life or death. So, he permitted hell because he loves the elect. The extent of His love for us is so far beyond our understanding.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#18
Why would God create man in the first place forseeing the Fall, and the death of His only Son, etc.
Gods ways are not our ways.
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#19
Jesus said that hell was created for the devil and his fallen angels. My question is: Why would God create an angel when he knows it will fall? When he knows there is NO CHANCE whatsoever of contrition, forgiveness and redemption.

As for human souls, we take it very personally, obviously. Jesus said that when we enter eternity all of our works go with us - the good and the bad. If there are different levels of happiness and reward in heaven, then it stands to reason that there are different levels of torment in hell. Maybe some people in hell won't suffer that much because of their good works. For example, if you take EENS strictly, an unbaptized pagan who lived a good life won't receive the same punishment as an apostate. For the apostate, it might be better had he never been born. For the pagan, maybe existence even in hell (limbo) is better than no existence at all.

I'm not here to say .. 'eh, hell might not be so bad...' I'm just saying God's justice is perfect, for the saved and the damned.

I am reminded of the story told by Hitler's mailman. When Hitler was a child, the mailman used to chat with the boy. At one point he asked him what he wanted to be when he grew up. Hitler said he wanted to be "a great artist." Perhaps when God created the soul of Hitler he saw "the great artist" instead of the dictator responsible for the murder of millions. Or perhaps he saw all the martyrs that would attain heaven because of the dictator. He creates us, knowing how we will use our free will, and knowing that even if we use it for evil, a greater good will come of it. He sees how all of it works to piece together the Grand Picture. All we see are the scattered pieces of the puzzle. And that's all we are left with for now.
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#20
(02-14-2010, 04:27 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 12:55 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: It is great love to show love for those who one knows will not return it.

Including the part where their lack of love, which you had foreknowledge of, condemns them to Hell for eternal suffering? Poppycock.

I'm sure you'd prefer an original answer from me, but it just so happens that St. Thomas Aquinas had something to say about your question:

St. Thomas Aquinas Wrote:The suffering of eternal punishment is in no way opposed to divine justice. Even in the laws men make, punishment need not correspond to the offense in point of time. For the crime of adultery or murder, either of which may be committed in a brief span of time, human law may prescribe lifelong exile or even death, by both of which the criminal is banned forever from the society of the state. Exile, it is true, does not last forever, but this is purely accidental, owing to the fact that man’s life is not everlasting; but the intention of the judge, we may assume, is to sentence the criminal to perpetual punishment, so far as he can. In the same way it is not unjust for God to inflict eternal punishment for a sin committed in a moment of time.

We should also take into consideration the fact that eternal punishment is inflicted on a sinner who does not repent of his sin, and so he continues in his sin up to his death. And since he is in sin for eternity, he is reasonably punished by God for all eternity. Furthermore, any sin committed against God has a certain infinity when regarded from the side of God, against whom it is committed. For, clearly, the greater the person who is offended, the more grievous is the offense. He who strikes a soldier is held more gravely accountable than if he struck a peasant; and his offense is much more serious if he strikes a prince or a king. Accordingly, since God is infinitely great, an offense committed against Him is in a certain respect infinite; and so a punishment that is in a certain respect infinite is duly attached to it. Such a punishment cannot be infinite in intensity, for nothing created can be infinite in this way. Consequently a punishment that is infinite in duration is rightly inflicted for mortal sin.

Moreover, while a person is still capable of correction, temporal punishment is imposed for his emendation or cleansing. But if a sinner is incorrigible, so that his will is obstinately fixed in sin, as we said above is the case with the damned, his punishment ought never to come to an end.
- Compendium Theologiae, I, cap. 183.


In short, because God is so holy, there is an infinite character to sins committed against Him. An infinite - or eternal - punishment is thus a proportionate response to a sin with an infinite character.

The eternity of hell is also part of God's perfect justice. Why should someone who's cursed God his whole life - and never repented - be admitted into Heaven alongside someone who was put to death for his faith in God? Why should such a man ever be admitted into Heaven? The lost soul cannot ever hate his sins for the right reason (for love of God), nor can it love, which is a requirement for going to Heaven. A person who loves things more than God is justly punished for all eternity because he misused his gifts of free will and reason. He made his choice, and when he dies, he'll regret being punished, but not his sins against God.
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