Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?
#21
If there is no option to lose the game, how do you have free will?  If there's no Hell, you can't NOT get to Heaven.

God knows that a given soul is going to Hell, but not because of predestination or some other Protestant misunderstanding.  We're in time, God is outside of time......everything that has ever happened or ever will happen is already known to God because He's not limited to seeing events and choices unfold, as we are.

Every choice we make or will make, and everything that influences or will influence that choice is known to God, who knows us better than we know ourselves.

For a poor analogy, when our son was 2 or 3, his mind and his reactions were so limited that they were easily encompassed by an adult mind (even mine!).  Most parents could accurately predict their childrens' reactions in any given situation or to any given stimulus when they are that age.  So, if I predict that little Luigi will do so-and-so, and he does it, it's not because he does not have free will, but because I know him so well that I know how he will exercise that free will in any given situation.  And how much easier it is for God to know our every action and reaction without in any way diminishing our freedom.

As others have already stated, this is the flip side of having free will to choose to know, love, and serve God.......there MUST be the choice to not know, not love, and not serve him, else the "choice" would be meaningless.
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#22
(02-14-2010, 04:27 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 12:55 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: It is great love to show love for those who one knows will not return it.

Including the part where their lack of love, which you had foreknowledge of, condemns them to Hell for eternal suffering? Poppycock.

I think of Hell as being the place where beings who choose to reject God go. This results in a place filled with such people, which, by definition, would cause much suffering. I do not think God made the suffering at all. It is inflicted by those who choose to go there. Sort of like a critical mass of evil, rather than a furnace maintained by God.

And yes, I do think it is great love for God to allow us to make this choice.
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#23
For what it's worth:

http://popinainteasy.blogspot.com/2009/1...ement.html

I think I recall St. John Damascene making a similar argument in the Exposition of the Orthodox Faith.
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#24
God would be easier to understand if we could deny omniscience.  Alas, we cannot-- so we cannot fully understand Him.
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#25
(02-14-2010, 05:36 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: Alas, we cannot-- so we cannot fully understand Him.

Yeah, that's the bottom line. We can make some good guesses, even using logic, but at the end of the day we'll never completely "get it".
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#26
(02-14-2010, 05:05 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 04:27 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 12:55 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: It is great love to show love for those who one knows will not return it.

Including the part where their lack of love, which you had foreknowledge of, condemns them to Hell for eternal suffering? Poppycock.

I think of Hell as being the place where beings who choose to reject God go. This results in a place filled with such people, which, by definition, would cause much suffering. I do not think God made the suffering at all. It is inflicted by those who choose to go there. Sort of like a critical mass of evil, rather than a furnace maintained by God.

And yes, I do think it is great love for God to allow us to make this choice.

I think that the souls of the damned were part of the price paid for love of His children. Is that true?

But also I do think that the damned end up in hell because they aren't afraid enough. To be afraid of hell is a very good thing.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#27
(02-14-2010, 09:50 PM)Jacafamala Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 05:05 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 04:27 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 12:55 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: It is great love to show love for those who one knows will not return it.

Including the part where their lack of love, which you had foreknowledge of, condemns them to Hell for eternal suffering? Poppycock.

I think of Hell as being the place where beings who choose to reject God go. This results in a place filled with such people, which, by definition, would cause much suffering. I do not think God made the suffering at all. It is inflicted by those who choose to go there. Sort of like a critical mass of evil, rather than a furnace maintained by God.

And yes, I do think it is great love for God to allow us to make this choice.

I think that the souls of the damned were part of the price paid for love of His children. Is that true?

But also I do think that the damned end up in hell because they aren't afraid enough. To be afraid of hell is a very good thing.

But I thought God loved us all equally.
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#28
(02-14-2010, 09:53 PM)Servus_Maria Wrote: But I thought God loved us all equally.

I'd say "fully" rather than "equally".

God created the world pure, and created beings with free will. The fact He knew of the future means nothing when free will is involved. God had a plan, to create, to love. This plan was not abandoned because of the Fall.

This being made in God's image is very important I think. We are like God in that we are able to know ourselves and to make choices. We are, being created by God, connected to Him in a way. God will let us choose to be separated from Him, but we cannot exist like we were designed in such a state, therefore, it is very unpleasant. That is what Hell is. It is the state of existence where God will not interfere because the beings in it chose to be there away from him. Or perhaps it is connected to God, but since the beings there rejected God, it is painful to be near God against our will. Either way, the suffering of Hell is the choice of its denizens, not that of God.
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#29
(02-14-2010, 04:37 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote: If he can create one soul that will go to heaven (and he has and does), and that is not a violation of Augustine's free will to have created his soul thusly, why not all souls this way?

OK.  So you choose to ignore my argument that He doesn’t create a soul that does anything.  All the souls God creates are good, whether they end up in hell or not via their free will.  So fine.  Ignore that.

Something else.  Your question carries a hidden assumption, that less souls or no souls in hell would be preferable.  To the contrary, I think that God would have created the human race even if only one of us went to heaven.  It’s not a numbers game.  It’s a justice game.  And justice is good, no matter what the numbers work out to. 

Furthermore, you ignore the aesthetic value derived from the souls in hell by the souls in heaven.  There is real joy, real satisfaction felt when witnessing some semblance of justice in this unjust world.  I can hardly wait to get an eyeball full of perfect justice in the next world.  – Here's Looking at You, Kid, Albert Cipriani
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#30
"...thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." - JRR Tolkien "The Silmarillion"
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