Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?
#31
(02-14-2010, 09:53 PM)Servus_Maria Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 09:50 PM)Jacafamala Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 05:05 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 04:27 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 12:55 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: It is great love to show love for those who one knows will not return it.

Including the part where their lack of love, which you had foreknowledge of, condemns them to Hell for eternal suffering? Poppycock.

I think of Hell as being the place where beings who choose to reject God go. This results in a place filled with such people, which, by definition, would cause much suffering. I do not think God made the suffering at all. It is inflicted by those who choose to go there. Sort of like a critical mass of evil, rather than a furnace maintained by God.

And yes, I do think it is great love for God to allow us to make this choice.

I think that the souls of the damned were part of the price paid for love of His children. Is that true?

But also I do think that the damned end up in hell because they aren't afraid enough. To be afraid of hell is a very good thing.

But I thought God loved us all equally.

He loves us all perfectly, saints and sinners alike.  God can do not but love. But the damned were part of the price which must be paid for persons created in His image and likeness, individuals with a free will.

In addition, justice and mercy must go together. There can't be one without the other. He predestines no one to hell; this we do ourselves, although the damned walk into it blindly, I do think.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#32
(02-14-2010, 07:16 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 05:36 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: Alas, we cannot-- so we cannot fully understand Him.

Yeah, that's the bottom line. We can make some good guesses, even using logic, but at the end of the day we'll never completely "get it".

Perhaps when we see Him, we will...
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#33
(02-15-2010, 08:39 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: ... the damned walk into it [hell] blindly...

If blindness were a prerequisite for damnation, then our God could not be a good God.  The most basic moral presupposition is that of volition.  One must be aware of the evil one commits for said evil to be evil or for said evil doer to be an evil doer. 

Ergo, no one is responsible for anything anyone does blindly.  Ergo, no moral God would allow hell to be a remotely possible landing zone for anyone who blindly stumbles. – Albert Cipriani
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#34
Why couldn't God just allow them to return to non-existence?  If you're so hung up on the free will aspect, what free choice were we given to either exist or not?  Isn't it kind of unjust to be sent to hell for not playing by the rules when we were never given a choice if we wanted to be set in the atmosphere of those rules to begin with?
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#35
(02-16-2010, 08:48 PM)Melkite Wrote: Why couldn't God just allow them to return to non-existence?  If you're so hung up on the free will aspect, what free choice were we given to either exist or not?  Isn't it kind of unjust to be sent to hell for not playing by the rules when we were never given a choice if we wanted to be set in the atmosphere of those rules to begin with?

God creates, not destroys.  Even destruction on Earth, such as the flood, isn't destruction per se - i.e., sent into non-existence.  To do that would be to go against His nature.

God has a "contract" of sorts with nature in that when the biological function of sperm meets egg occurs properly He implants a soul.  To not implant a soul purposefully would be to interfere with the free will of our parents to engage in a pro-creative act by intentionally making it not pro-creative.  So, blame them for copulating. 

The next question as to why He doesn't make a soul and ask it if it wants to be incarnate goes back to the first one - what does He do with a soul that doesn't want to go?  Well, He won't make it non-existent (see above).  So, it could go to a waiting room, but then He's creating souls outside of the contract.  Also, the Church condemned the notion of the pre-existence of souls.  You also have the problem that the soul doesn't have the experience to decide using informed reason if it should go or not.

So why did God make this contract?  Well, IMO, because we're created in His image so we have a Creator-nature about us where we partake in the creation of humans - we give the biology, He gives the soul.

As for not wanting to play by these rules, that's akin to saying, "I didn't ask to be born" which is pretty much what Job said.  So, it seems to me more answers can be found in the Book of Job.

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#36
(02-16-2010, 08:48 PM)Melkite Wrote: Why couldn't God just allow them to return to non-existence? 

Return to non-existence” is a nonsensical expression.  A return to some non-existent state denotes some kind of existence in said non-existent state, which is doubletalk.  Perhaps you mean, why couldn’t God just annihilate the damned. 

If God annihilated the damned, the damned would still exist in the memory of all their victims.  This would be unfair and a violation of justice for the victims. 

Melkite wrote: “Isn't it kind of unjust to be sent to hell for not playing by the rules when we were never given a choice if we wanted to be set in the atmosphere of those rules to begin with?”

Sure it’s unjust to be forced to play a game by the rules if one doesn’t want to play the game.  But that injustice presupposes knowledge of the game and the unborn have no knowledge of the game they are being born into.  Ergo, the unborn are not free to make the choice of playing the heaven-hell game. 

You musn’t blame God for metaphysical facts of the matter.  Even He cannot help some things. – Albert Cipriani
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#37
(02-15-2010, 02:51 AM)albert Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 04:37 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote: If he can create one soul that will go to heaven (and he has and does), and that is not a violation of Augustine's free will to have created his soul thusly, why not all souls this way?

OK.  So you choose to ignore my argument that He doesn’t create a soul that does anything.  All the souls God creates are good, whether they end up in hell or not via their free will.  So fine.  Ignore that.

Simmer down, I don't remember reading whatever you said. If I did read it, I may have ignored it as not answering the question that I asked because several answers thus far have implied I think God is some sort of divine watchmaker, that he makes sinners' souls and saints' and sets the gears into motion like we're wind-up toys.

I did say that I'm assuming omniscience, that is to say, God knows what will happen. So an answer like what you gave (upon re-read) misses my point.

So: a)God knows who will and will not persevere. He has this infinite, perfect knowledge. b)God makes souls c)God tells us it is better to have no been born than to betray him (Mark 14:21, Matt 26:24) aka 'turn away' aka 'go to Hell' etc. There are these situations like Judas, where God acknowledges it would have been better to not have been born.

So, I'm just saying, if God knows what a soul (with free will) will do, he could just not bring said soul into being. It's not the same as forcing you to do something it is only making those he knows will persevere finally.

It is different.

(02-15-2010, 02:51 AM)albert Wrote: Something else.  Your question carries a hidden assumption, that less souls or no souls in hell would be preferable.  To the contrary, I think that God would have created the human race even if only one of us went to heaven.  It’s not a numbers game.  It’s a justice game.  And justice is good, no matter what the numbers work out to. 
No, that assumption is not 'hidden.' It is quite overt. And yes, less or no souls in Hell would be preferable. God says so.

If God would have created the human race if only one of us went to heaven or not, I have no idea...

Apparently it is a numbers game, as I am under the impression God created us to know him and love him in this life and the next. God, in his triune perfection, nonetheless, wanted our love. Love cannot be given to one's self, thus he created us. So, it is a numbers game, as one (God) was apparently a 'lonely' number.

(02-15-2010, 02:51 AM)albert Wrote: Furthermore, you ignore the aesthetic value derived from the souls in hell by the souls in heaven.  There is real joy, real satisfaction felt when witnessing some semblance of justice in this unjust world.  – Here's Looking at You, Kid, Albert Cipriani
"Aesthetic value" derived some eternally tormented souls?! You're sick man.

(02-15-2010, 02:51 AM)albert Wrote: I can hardly wait to get an eyeball full of perfect justice in the next world. 
Wow. It's hard to know where to start with this line...
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#38
(02-19-2010, 02:23 AM)albert Wrote: You musn’t blame God for metaphysical facts of the matter.  Even He cannot help some things. – Albert Cipriani

What in the Hell are you talking about? God can 'help' anything. He can do anything he desires (keeping in mind he is love, and is just).

God made the metaphysical facts of the matter.
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#39
(02-14-2010, 12:38 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 04:27 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 12:55 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: It is great love to show love for those who one knows will not return it.

Including the part where their lack of love, which you had foreknowledge of, condemns them to Hell for eternal suffering? Poppycock.

I'm sure you'd prefer an original answer from me, but it just so happens that St. Thomas Aquinas had something to say about your question:

St. Thomas Aquinas Wrote:The suffering of eternal punishment is in no way opposed to divine justice. Even in the laws men make, punishment need not correspond to the offense in point of time. For the crime of adultery or murder, either of which may be committed in a brief span of time, human law may prescribe lifelong exile or even death, by both of which the criminal is banned forever from the society of the state. Exile, it is true, does not last forever, but this is purely accidental, owing to the fact that man’s life is not everlasting; but the intention of the judge, we may assume, is to sentence the criminal to perpetual punishment, so far as he can. In the same way it is not unjust for God to inflict eternal punishment for a sin committed in a moment of time.

We should also take into consideration the fact that eternal punishment is inflicted on a sinner who does not repent of his sin, and so he continues in his sin up to his death. And since he is in sin for eternity, he is reasonably punished by God for all eternity. Furthermore, any sin committed against God has a certain infinity when regarded from the side of God, against whom it is committed. For, clearly, the greater the person who is offended, the more grievous is the offense. He who strikes a soldier is held more gravely accountable than if he struck a peasant; and his offense is much more serious if he strikes a prince or a king. Accordingly, since God is infinitely great, an offense committed against Him is in a certain respect infinite; and so a punishment that is in a certain respect infinite is duly attached to it. Such a punishment cannot be infinite in intensity, for nothing created can be infinite in this way. Consequently a punishment that is infinite in duration is rightly inflicted for mortal sin.

Moreover, while a person is still capable of correction, temporal punishment is imposed for his emendation or cleansing. But if a sinner is incorrigible, so that his will is obstinately fixed in sin, as we said above is the case with the damned, his punishment ought never to come to an end.
- Compendium Theologiae, I, cap. 183.


In short, because God is so holy, there is an infinite character to sins committed against Him. An infinite - or eternal - punishment is thus a proportionate response to a sin with an infinite character.

The eternity of hell is also part of God's perfect justice. Why should someone who's cursed God his whole life - and never repented - be admitted into Heaven alongside someone who was put to death for his faith in God? Why should such a man ever be admitted into Heaven? The lost soul cannot ever hate his sins for the right reason (for love of God), nor can it love, which is a requirement for going to Heaven. A person who loves things more than God is justly punished for all eternity because he misused his gifts of free will and reason. He made his choice, and when he dies, he'll regret being punished, but not his sins against God.

*sigh*

I am not questioning God's right to condemn us, nor his judgment. Not my question at all, at all...
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#40
(02-14-2010, 12:50 AM)Servus_Maria Wrote: But why wouldn't He just create the souls he knew were going to use their free will to return that love rather than create souls knowing most of them will go to Hell?
Exactly!!

(02-14-2010, 12:55 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: Is that free will then?
Yeah, why wouldn't it be? He didn't make them do anything. He just made those that would do certain things.
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