Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?
#61
First off in our pride we assume we have a right to an answer.
Second our sense of justice cannot compair to Gods
We see as through a glass darkly.
Remember that Gods purposes are inscrutable. Mankind was Created for The Son. Gods Goal is within the Trinity and this is a great Mystery.  Quiz is right there must be some value to even a condemned soul. A value known to the Trinity, and unsearchable to us until it is revealed by the Trinity. So go back to begging questions, and trust Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.
Reply
#62
(02-01-2011, 07:51 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: First off in our pride we assume we have a right to an answer.
Second our sense of justice cannot compair to Gods
We see as through a glass darkly.
Remember that Gods purposes are inscrutable. Mankind was Created for The Son. Gods Goal is within the Trinity and this is a great Mystery.  Quis is right there must be some value to even a condemned soul. A value known to the Trinity, and unsearchable to us until it is revealed by the Trinity. So go back to begging questions, and trust Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.
Reply
#63
(02-01-2011, 07:51 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: First off in our pride we assume we have a right to an answer.

True. It was because of desire for forbidden knowledge that our first parents sinned.
Reply
#64
Ultimately this come down to the leap of faith Thomas Aquinas's explanation of why God sends and creates
souls that go to Hell, while it may be reasonable seems on a gut level to be unfair.  I have faith
that God's judgments are just even though I do not see how some of them are just at this time
I trust that it will be revealed in time.
Reply
#65
(02-01-2011, 12:54 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: One thought that has entered my mind lately with a lot of force is that this is indeed Die Beste aller möglichen Welten.  Leibniz was right.  The absolute proof is that God made things this way.  It makes little sense to imagine that God might have made a better world, but chose to make this worse one.

The eternal existence of hell and the souls in it must be a good.  God is His Being is His Justice is His Goodness is His Love.  Hell is thus both Good and Just.  Hell stands as an eternal proclamation of God's goodness and justice.  Romano Amerio uses the analogy of a painting with contrasting lighting.  If you put your face very close to a dark portion of the painting, all you would see is darkness.  Yet if you stand back and take the entire thing in at once, you see that the darkness is necessary to making the perfect and beautiful unity of the work of art.  As hard as it is for us to comprehend, from the God's eye point of view, hell must be part of the perfection of His plan.

Amerio, taking some inspiration from Dante, also suggests that at the judgment, the damned souls will be racing to get into hell, not because the experience of hell is going to be enjoyable (by no means) but that their souls will take some kind of comfort from being where they belong.  In other words, hell in the translation to eternity, corrects what was wrong with this world definitively and forever.

Just so. 

"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more richly, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them."

St. Thomas Aquinas

I recall reading a revelation where a saint asked God to pull a soul out of Hell, and bring it into Heaven, and He did so, and the soul of the damned could not stand being there, because it hated the disorder of it, and so of course, it could not be. Wish I could remember where I read it.
Reply
#66
(02-01-2011, 08:17 AM)Exilenomore Wrote:
(02-01-2011, 07:51 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: First off in our pride we assume we have a right to an answer.

True. It was because of desire for forbidden knowledge that our first parents sinned.
Right
Reply
#67
(02-13-2010, 11:55 PM)Servus_Maria Wrote: ???

GOD grants free will to every man so that the choices that man makes dictate where that man will end up and doesnt allow any man to be tempted beyond their strength.  Likewise your question presupposes that GOD chooses to use the power he has to know the outcome.  Its like a Christmas present - do i have the power to tear it open and look inside?  Of course - but simply because i have the power to - that doesnt mean I choose to do it until Christmas day.
Reply
#68
Although I already provided a few justice-related thoughts on the matter, I found a different approach to the question while perusing an apologetic work popular in the 1940s. Fathers Rumble and Carty provide a very insightful commentary on this question, which is found in the Second Volume of Radio Replies, P.170:

Q.708 Wrote:If God knows a soul is to be damned, it is useless for that soul to try to attain salvation.

There is no predestination for damnation. Nor is it futile for an individual to endeavor to save his soul. God says even to the worst sinners, “Repent, and if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as snow” (Isaiah I., 18). If a man is lost, it will be solely through his own fault. God may know that certain souls will choose to damn themselves, but He knows they have not got to do so, nor does His knowledge make them do so. Knowledge [of an event] doesn’t cause an event; the event causes knowledge [of the event]. Because Jack is running I know that he is running. But he certainly isn’t running because I know it. God knows that a man will choose to lose his soul only because that man will so choose. There is no need for him to choose so disastrously. He receives sufficient grace for his conversion. Let him correspond with the voice of God and of conscience, repenting of his sins, and he will be saved. It is not futile for him to endeavor to save his soul, and if he is lost it will be precisely because he did not endeavor to do so. Just imagine a farmer who says: God knows whether I’m going to have a crop or not. If He knows, I’ll have it, whatever I do. If He knows that I won’t have it, I won’t have it, whatever I do. So I won’t plough, I won’t sow any seed, it’s futile. Such a man is working on the absurd idea that knowledge causes the event instead of realizing that the event causes knowledge of it. Let us all do our best in the service of God, the practice of extra virtue, the avoiding of sin, and the desire of holiness. If we do, the practical result will be our salvation. The solution of the speculative problems can safely be left to God.

I would only like to comment on a technical aspect of the word choice “event”. By “event”, Fathers Rumble and Carty do not necessarily restrict its meaning to an event bound within the parameters of linear time; they are referring to the effect of a cause, a relationship which isn’t necessarily confined to the limitations of linear time. For man, the execution of free will, though it is a power existing outside of time, is necessarily manifested in time. For God, however, the execution of this power is not limited to the confines of time, for God is not subject to a symbiotic relationship between body and soul.

In short, this means that the execution of the power of free will is made outside of time, though, for man, this execution is manifested in time. But it is not as if God is sitting on a some throne outside of time looking at these manifestations of our free will in time and then deciding whether or not to create us in the first place based on these soon-to-be manifestations of which we have no knowledge. God does not have knowledge of our choices because He sees that we will one day choose them. Though there are certain biological processes taking place in the medium of time that usually affect what we will choose, these time-restricted processes are not how God knows what we will choose. The actual execution of the supernatural power of free will outside of time is how God knows what we have chosen; these choices but await manifestation in time so that we know what we have chosen.

It is important for us to experience these manifestations of our free will because, without time as a medium, we could not learn from our mistakes, repent, do penance for the sins of our past, or see the effects of our choices in life. But without factoring in time as a necessary condition of free will, we struggle to understand exactly how this cause-effect relationship works, for we have never known anything but that which is limited to the parameters of the dimensional box by which our minds are temporally restricted. To us, even while acknowledging the existence of an incomprehensibly minute micro-interval of time, the cause must come before the effect in time. Without the dimension of time as a factor, we are left with the imagination of a purely static reality in which a cause precipitates an effect without the former happening before the latter on a linear timescale. In this time-absent reality, the same choice is always being made and still being made by a power existing outside of time. This is mind-boggling metaphysical reality, but it is the reality that must be acknowledged when considering why God would create a soul He knows would “choose” hell. The question then becomes: When does the soul really choose hell?
Reply
#69
All these seven pages of comments---which contain some very great stuff, by the way---are tethered to one concept that God Himself is not: TIME.  The explanations are all based on a certain "if x, then y" that is not applicable to God. 

Even the language we are using to ask the question, "Why would God create a soul He knows will go to Hell?" demonstrates this: we can only even try to understand it by embedding it with verbal time references (tenses).  But God is beyond time: He is of no beginning and no end. Time means nothing to God---really, time it is a lie constructed by us humans to make sense of what we perceive as the progression of events.  To this extent, we are time, or at least the perceivers of we've determined to be "time."  To ask why God would do something at one "time" for the purposes of some event at another "time" doesn't even make sense in the consideration of a being Who acts entirely independent of time itself.  This is why free will makes sense in the first place: it is 100% true that God knows "where" we are going and it is 100% true that we control which "where" that is, because God's "for-knowledge" of events is not "before" anything, but a simple and pure knowledge of everything, regardless of time.

We cannot even conceive of this timelessness in our limited human minds: you'd be better off trying to tell me what it was like for you when you didn't exist.  Anyone?---please, I'm listening!  :)  We have absolutely no way of even conceiving of such as concept---yet we know that there was, apparently, a time when we "weren't," at least as we perceive.  I guess what I'm saying is that there is no "future" to God, and there is no past.  So thinking of the actions of God in a past-present-future progressive don't even make sense.
Reply
#70
(02-13-2011, 12:50 AM)quotidianum Wrote: All these seven pages of comments---which contain some very great stuff, by the way---are tethered to one concept that God Himself is not: TIME

Did you read my post?

Fathers Rumble and Carty treated of the subject rather well I'd say.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)