Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?
#71
(02-13-2011, 12:58 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(02-13-2011, 12:50 AM)quotidianum Wrote: All these seven pages of comments---which contain some very great stuff, by the way---are tethered to one concept that God Himself is not: TIME

Did you read my post?

Fathers Rumble and Carty treated of the subject rather well I'd say.
INPEFESS-yikes!  I missed your post on this page---I clicked on the "Reply" button at the top of the page after being away from the computer for a minute.  I did read your posts on the earlier pages, and I always like reading what you write.  As for the one just above: I agree---I think that is very well put, and from much better authorities than myself!  :)  Thanks!
Reply
#72
(02-13-2011, 01:14 AM)quotidianum Wrote:
(02-13-2011, 12:58 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(02-13-2011, 12:50 AM)quotidianum Wrote: All these seven pages of comments---which contain some very great stuff, by the way---are tethered to one concept that God Himself is not: TIME

Did you read my post?

Fathers Rumble and Carty treated of the subject rather well I'd say.
INPEFESS-yikes!  I missed your post on this page---I clicked on the "Reply" button at the top of the page after being away from the computer for a minute.

That's alright. No problem. I figured you must not have seen what the good fathers had to say. You basically exposed the same problem they were. For having done it without looking, well done!  :)

Quote:  I did read your posts on the earlier pages, and I always like reading what you write.
Thank you.

Quote:  As for the one just above: I agree---I think that is very well put, and from much better authorities than myself!  :)  Thanks!

Indeed. Without getting too technical or complex, they answer some very popular challenges to the Faith quite adequately. I would highly recommend Radio Replies, the 3-book series. It is a very handy reference to have when debating with someone with a short attention span (like myself).
Reply
#73
(02-12-2011, 02:09 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: Although I already provided a few justice-related thoughts on the matter, I found a different approach to the question while perusing an apologetic work popular in the 1940s. Fathers Rumble and Carty provide a very insightful commentary on this question, which is found in the Second Volume of Radio Replies, P.170:

Q.708 Wrote:If God knows a soul is to be damned, it is useless for that soul to try to attain salvation.

There is no predestination for damnation. Nor is it futile for an individual to endeavor to save his soul. God says even to the worst sinners, “Repent, and if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as snow” (Isaiah I., 18). If a man is lost, it will be solely through his own fault. God may know that certain souls will choose to damn themselves, but He knows they have not got to do so, nor does His knowledge make them do so. Knowledge [of an event] doesn’t cause an event; the event causes knowledge [of the event]. Because Jack is running I know that he is running. But he certainly isn’t running because I know it. God knows that a man will choose to lose his soul only because that man will so choose. There is no need for him to choose so disastrously. He receives sufficient grace for his conversion. Let him correspond with the voice of God and of conscience, repenting of his sins, and he will be saved. It is not futile for him to endeavor to save his soul, and if he is lost it will be precisely because he did not endeavor to do so. Just imagine a farmer who says: God knows whether I’m going to have a crop or not. If He knows, I’ll have it, whatever I do. If He knows that I won’t have it, I won’t have it, whatever I do. So I won’t plough, I won’t sow any seed, it’s futile. Such a man is working on the absurd idea that knowledge causes the event instead of realizing that the event causes knowledge of it. Let us all do our best in the service of God, the practice of extra virtue, the avoiding of sin, and the desire of holiness. If we do, the practical result will be our salvation. The solution of the speculative problems can safely be left to God.

I would only like to comment on a technical aspect of the word choice “event”. By “event”, Fathers Rumble and Carty do not necessarily restrict its meaning to an event bound within the parameters of linear time; they are referring to the effect of a cause, a relationship which isn’t necessarily confined to the limitations of linear time. For man, the execution of free will, though it is a power existing outside of time, is necessarily manifested in time. For God, however, the execution of this power is not limited to the confines of time, for God is not subject to a symbiotic relationship between body and soul.

In short, this means that the execution of the power of free will is made outside of time, though, for man, this execution is manifested in time. But it is not as if God is sitting on a some throne outside of time looking at these manifestations of our free will in time and then deciding whether or not to create us in the first place based on these soon-to-be manifestations of which we have no knowledge. God does not have knowledge of our choices because He sees that we will one day choose them. Though there are certain biological processes taking place in the medium of time that usually affect what we will choose, these time-restricted processes are not how God knows what we will choose. The actual execution of the supernatural power of free will outside of time is how God knows what we have chosen; these choices but await manifestation in time so that we know what we have chosen.

It is important for us to experience these manifestations of our free will because, without time as a medium, we could not learn from our mistakes, repent, do penance for the sins of our past, or see the effects of our choices in life. But without factoring in time as a necessary condition of free will, we struggle to understand exactly how this cause-effect relationship works, for we have never known anything but that which is limited to the parameters of the dimensional box by which our minds are temporally restricted. To us, even while acknowledging the existence of an incomprehensibly minute micro-interval of time, the cause must come before the effect in time. Without the dimension of time as a factor, we are left with the imagination of a purely static reality in which a cause precipitates an effect without the former happening before the latter on a linear timescale. In this time-absent reality, the same choice is always being made and still being made by a power existing outside of time. This is mind-boggling metaphysical reality, but it is the reality that must be acknowledged when considering why God would create a soul He knows would “choose” hell. The question then becomes: When does the soul really choose hell?


Precisely.  The OP assumes the answer with the original question.  When Our Lord Transfigured - he chose ther day , the time and the manner and he didnt Transfigure in front of all the Apostles.    This proves that GOD chose to condescend to flesh for the benefit of man choosing what to reveal to whom and when.  Therefore to assume that GOD chooses to know the outcome in the case of the salvation of each and every individual is without basis in fact. GOD has the power , but whether he chooses to use that power is conjecture.
Reply
#74
(02-14-2011, 04:48 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote:
(02-12-2011, 02:09 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: Although I already provided a few justice-related thoughts on the matter, I found a different approach to the question while perusing an apologetic work popular in the 1940s. Fathers Rumble and Carty provide a very insightful commentary on this question, which is found in the Second Volume of Radio Replies, P.170:

Q.708 Wrote:If God knows a soul is to be damned, it is useless for that soul to try to attain salvation.

There is no predestination for damnation. Nor is it futile for an individual to endeavor to save his soul. God says even to the worst sinners, “Repent, and if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as snow” (Isaiah I., 18). If a man is lost, it will be solely through his own fault. God may know that certain souls will choose to damn themselves, but He knows they have not got to do so, nor does His knowledge make them do so. Knowledge [of an event] doesn’t cause an event; the event causes knowledge [of the event]. Because Jack is running I know that he is running. But he certainly isn’t running because I know it. God knows that a man will choose to lose his soul only because that man will so choose. There is no need for him to choose so disastrously. He receives sufficient grace for his conversion. Let him correspond with the voice of God and of conscience, repenting of his sins, and he will be saved. It is not futile for him to endeavor to save his soul, and if he is lost it will be precisely because he did not endeavor to do so. Just imagine a farmer who says: God knows whether I’m going to have a crop or not. If He knows, I’ll have it, whatever I do. If He knows that I won’t have it, I won’t have it, whatever I do. So I won’t plough, I won’t sow any seed, it’s futile. Such a man is working on the absurd idea that knowledge causes the event instead of realizing that the event causes knowledge of it. Let us all do our best in the service of God, the practice of extra virtue, the avoiding of sin, and the desire of holiness. If we do, the practical result will be our salvation. The solution of the speculative problems can safely be left to God.

I would only like to comment on a technical aspect of the word choice “event”. By “event”, Fathers Rumble and Carty do not necessarily restrict its meaning to an event bound within the parameters of linear time; they are referring to the effect of a cause, a relationship which isn’t necessarily confined to the limitations of linear time. For man, the execution of free will, though it is a power existing outside of time, is necessarily manifested in time. For God, however, the execution of this power is not limited to the confines of time, for God is not subject to a symbiotic relationship between body and soul.

In short, this means that the execution of the power of free will is made outside of time, though, for man, this execution is manifested in time. But it is not as if God is sitting on a some throne outside of time looking at these manifestations of our free will in time and then deciding whether or not to create us in the first place based on these soon-to-be manifestations of which we have no knowledge. God does not have knowledge of our choices because He sees that we will one day choose them. Though there are certain biological processes taking place in the medium of time that usually affect what we will choose, these time-restricted processes are not how God knows what we will choose. The actual execution of the supernatural power of free will outside of time is how God knows what we have chosen; these choices but await manifestation in time so that we know what we have chosen.

It is important for us to experience these manifestations of our free will because, without time as a medium, we could not learn from our mistakes, repent, do penance for the sins of our past, or see the effects of our choices in life. But without factoring in time as a necessary condition of free will, we struggle to understand exactly how this cause-effect relationship works, for we have never known anything but that which is limited to the parameters of the dimensional box by which our minds are temporally restricted. To us, even while acknowledging the existence of an incomprehensibly minute micro-interval of time, the cause must come before the effect in time. Without the dimension of time as a factor, we are left with the imagination of a purely static reality in which a cause precipitates an effect without the former happening before the latter on a linear timescale. In this time-absent reality, the same choice is always being made and still being made by a power existing outside of time. This is mind-boggling metaphysical reality, but it is the reality that must be acknowledged when considering why God would create a soul He knows would “choose” hell. The question then becomes: When does the soul really choose hell?


Precisely.   The OP assumes the answer with the original question.  When Our Lord Transfigured - he chose ther day , the time and the manner and he didnt Transfigure in front of all the Apostles.    This proves that GOD chose to condescend to flesh for the benefit of man choosing what to reveal to whom and when.  Therefore to assume that GOD chooses to know the outcome in the case of the salvation of each and every individual is without basis in fact. GOD has the power , but whether he chooses to use that power is conjecture.

You seem to be suggesting some kind of potentia in God.  The Thomist in me balks.
Reply
#75
Are you saying that God deliberately avoids knowing something ???
Reply
#76
[quote='voxpopulisuxx' pid='698409' dateline='1297724519']
Are you saying that God deliberately avoids knowing something ???
[/quote

I am saying that GOD is omnipotent.  Meaning that GOD has the power to do OR NOT DO everything.  Am I saying definitively that GOD chooses not to know everything?  Obviously not , or I would be on YOUR Side of the fence in this argument wouldnt I.    I merely refuse to assume what GOD Chooses to do as it relates to this question which presupposes to know.
Reply
#77
That would mean that God is not omniscient in act but only in potency.
Reply
#78
(02-14-2011, 07:05 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote: [quote='voxpopulisuxx' pid='698409' dateline='1297724519']
Are you saying that God deliberately avoids knowing something ???
[/quote

I am saying that GOD is omnipotent.   Meaning that GOD has the power to do OR NOT DO everything.   Am I saying definitively that GOD chooses not to know everything?   Obviously not , or I would be on YOUR Side of the fence in this argument wouldnt I.    I merely refuse to assume what GOD Chooses to do as it relates to this question which presupposes to know.
God does not have the Power to Lie
Reply
#79
(02-14-2011, 08:59 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(02-14-2011, 07:05 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote: [quote='voxpopulisuxx' pid='698409' dateline='1297724519']
Are you saying that God deliberately avoids knowing something ???
[/quote

I am saying that GOD is omnipotent.   Meaning that GOD has the power to do OR NOT DO everything.   Am I saying definitively that GOD chooses not to know everything?   Obviously not , or I would be on YOUR Side of the fence in this argument wouldnt I.    I merely refuse to assume what GOD Chooses to do as it relates to this question which presupposes to know.
God does not have the Power to Lie

GOD is omnicient by choice.  GOD doesnt have to prove his truths because GOD is not under the commandments.  Even if you thought GOD lied - you would be wrong because no one judges GOD.  The commandment is Thou shalt not lie meaning GOD Telling man he cannot lie. That commandment doesnt apply to GOD it applies to us.  So to conisder anything from GOD is judging to a certain degree. Our searh is not for the TRUTH in what GOD reveals , but rather the search is fopr GOD to reveal more.  But GOD chooses what he will or will not reveal.  So the question itself posed , presupposes that GOD chooses to know.  I say prove that he does.  When it is asked " He knows will go to Hell" I say Prove he knows.  And back it up with more than just opinion.    I think we are all in agreement that GOD has the power to know if he so chooses.  Where we disagree is that he chooses to know.

And while we are on the subject ,

It is a fact that GOD does not reveal everything by HIS choice either.  Could GOD reveal himself to man if he so chose?  Of course.  Can GOD Create mankind with FREE WILL?  He did.  If Man TRULY has free will - in order for it to be entirely free GOD has to choose to allow that freedom without coersion.  That in itself is an omission.  In addition GOD Condescended to become man in the person of Jesus Christ and not in all of his glory. That too is a choice of omission.  Look at how the Apostles reacted when Jesus Transfigured !    Therefore , just because GOD has the POWER to know everything to control everything to do everything - that doesnt mean he chooses to on ALL Occasions.    The occasion may suit his interests by restraint.      Because , being GOD he can and does design self sustaining entities that of their own cannot self sustain without GOD But in space and time a short term can exist and flourish which of course is what our life on earth is.  Another example of restraint -  for example - GOD Cannot make me love him if he has granted me free will that is truly free.  Many of the TRUTHS we scratch the surface of and that come from revealed truths of GOD are through purposeful omissions by GOD.  We know that GOD doesnt reveal himself fully and yet through faith he reveals himself more fully when we obtain more of his grace.  Seemingly a contradiction. But as a person grows in spirit and leaves the vestiges of the world not so much so.    So I think you have to look deeper into the aspects of the Faith.  Yes GOD is in charge - but dont assume GOD determines your salvation for you.  GOD is there for you - but ultimately salvation is in YOUR Hands moreso than in his.    It is for that reason GOD Created man.  So that man can give to GOD what GOD cannot give himself - Love given freely by a creature of its own free will TO GOD.  And the only way GOD can get it - is through restraint.  And that , my friends , illustrates his power to a greater degree than knowing.
Reply
#80
The scripture clearly states that God cannot lie.
The Lord himself defined himself AS TRUTH not a truth or true in his words but THE truth. Since the purpose of creation is Jesus and Jesus is truth it is impossible for God to be anything but what he is as Trinity. Truth is not what he speaks but what HE IS
Also God has no NEED for the love of his creatures. As Trinity he is fully complete.
Your position shows a lack of scriptural study. And basic Catholic Catichesis
Also you need to use the quote button better, you keep encapsulating your new comments in the old quote.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)