Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?
#81
(02-15-2011, 03:33 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: The scripture clearly states that God cannot lie.
The Lord himself defined himself AS TRUTH not a truth or true in his words but THE truth. Since the purpose of creation is Jesus and Jesus is truth it is impossible for God to be anything but what he is as Trinity. Truth is not what he speaks but what HE IS
Also God has no NEED for the love of his creatures. As Trinity he is fully complete.
Your position shows a lack of scriptural study. And basic Catholic Catichesis
Also you need to use the quote button better, you keep encapsulating your new comments in the old quote.


I agree with everything you wrote regarding Scripture - GOD - Truth - but the Purpose of Creation is from the Baltimore Catechism - to KNOW LOVE and SERVE GOD so as to be happy with him forever in heaven.  Lesson one - Why did GOD make me?

I Agree that GOD is truth and What I fail to understand is what the heck you are talking about.  First - I never once ssaid GOD lies , implied it or said anything about anything to do with it - that appears only in YOUR POST.  Second - the TRINITy is undefinable in Human Terms.  No one can say they know the mind of GOD - we are mere creatures.  You appear to have a false iullusion of GOD and that illusion seemingly limits GOD to what your own concept is.  GOD is more than what any person can know - hense the TRINITY is regarded by Catholic theologians as a MYSTERY.  And also - speaking of trivial nonsense like the Quote button I'll leave for you to worry over and isnt worth my time to comment on.
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#82
The purpose of creation is Jesus
My happiness is a benifit of that purpose. The catichism is contectually about why the individual was Born, and what his purpose is ...but
man was created to bring forth Christ.
You asserted that God could lie if he wanted too...I asserted that he could do no more then he could sin. He cannot lie because he can never stop being God.
There's nothing silly about properly posting in the forum, in fact the forum rules request proper quoting.
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#83
(02-16-2011, 04:40 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: The purpose of creation is Jesus
My happiness is a benifit of that purpose. The catichism is contectually about why the individual was Born, and what his purpose is ...but
man was created to bring forth Christ.
You asserted that God could lie if he wanted too...I asserted that he could do no more then he could sin. He cannot lie because he can never stop being God.
There's nothing silly about properly posting in the forum, in fact the forum rules request proper quoting.

No the Purpose of Creation is HEAVEN.  If you dont get there you have let Jesus down.

There is no true Happiness until we GET to heaven - this world is a vale of tears.

And as for Man being born to bring forth Christ  - you have that Backwards.  Christ was born to Redeem Man from his defection from GOD By the sin of Adam and all that came with that Sin.

I never one time asserted anything of the sort and I hereby challenge you to Cut and paste SPECIFICALLY Where what you claim is found.  I never called GOD A Liar , but as of right now I am calling you one.  For the last and FINAL Time , I never said anything of the sort and I Demand you either post proof or retract your lie about what you claim I said.

I am not going to Comment on the balance because I have no reason to "defend" something I never said.  My suggestion - go back and reread what I wrote , its obvious you are not using the Forum the way it is intended - IE In context. 

I'll defend the things I say -  not the things you imagine.
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#84
(02-17-2011, 03:53 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote:
(02-16-2011, 04:40 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: The purpose of creation is Jesus
My happiness is a benifit of that purpose. The catichism is contectually about why the individual was Born, and what his purpose is ...but
man was created to bring forth Christ.
You asserted that God could lie if he wanted too...I asserted that he could do no more then he could sin. He cannot lie because he can never stop being God.
There's nothing silly about properly posting in the forum, in fact the forum rules request proper quoting.

No the Purpose of Creation is HEAVEN.   If you dont get there you have let Jesus down.

There is no true Happiness until we GET to heaven - this world is a vale of tears.

And as for Man being born to bring forth Christ  - you have that Backwards.  Christ was born to Redeem Man from his defection from GOD By the sin of Adam and all that came with that Sin.

I never one time asserted anything of the sort and I hereby challenge you to Cut and paste SPECIFICALLY Where what you claim is found.  I never called GOD A Liar , but as of right now I am calling you one.   For the last and FINAL Time , I never said anything of the sort and I Demand you either post proof or retract your lie about what you claim I said.

I am not going to Comment on the balance because I have no reason to "defend" something I never said.  My suggestion - go back and reread what I wrote , its obvious you are not using the Forum the way it is intended - IE In context.   

I'll defend the things I say -  not the things you imagine.
I retract it if I said it I didnt. Show me and if your right Ill mea culpa. All I said was that God Cannot lie...you asserted there is nothing God cant do.
JESUS is HEAVEN....JESUS is the reason for everything...anywhere Jesus is there is Heaven.....the purpose of God the father creating everything is to reveal His Son which is the Image of LOVE itself. Humans were saved by Christ, but Christ existed before man needed Salvation. Jesus is everything.
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#85
(02-17-2011, 06:00 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(02-17-2011, 03:53 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote:
(02-16-2011, 04:40 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: The purpose of creation is Jesus
My happiness is a benifit of that purpose. The catichism is contectually about why the individual was Born, and what his purpose is ...but
man was created to bring forth Christ.
You asserted that God could lie if he wanted too...I asserted that he could do no more then he could sin. He cannot lie because he can never stop being God.
There's nothing silly about properly posting in the forum, in fact the forum rules request proper quoting.

No the Purpose of Creation is HEAVEN.   If you dont get there you have let Jesus down.

There is no true Happiness until we GET to heaven - this world is a vale of tears.

And as for Man being born to bring forth Christ  - you have that Backwards.  Christ was born to Redeem Man from his defection from GOD By the sin of Adam and all that came with that Sin.

I never one time asserted anything of the sort and I hereby challenge you to Cut and paste SPECIFICALLY Where what you claim is found.  I never called GOD A Liar , but as of right now I am calling you one.   For the last and FINAL Time , I never said anything of the sort and I Demand you either post proof or retract your lie about what you claim I said.

I am not going to Comment on the balance because I have no reason to "defend" something I never said.  My suggestion - go back and reread what I wrote , its obvious you are not using the Forum the way it is intended - IE In context.   

I'll defend the things I say -  not the things you imagine.
I retract it if I said it I didnt. Show me and if your right Ill mea culpa. All I said was that God Cannot lie...you asserted there is nothing God cant do.
JESUS is HEAVEN....JESUS is the reason for everything...anywhere Jesus is there is Heaven.....the purpose of God the father creating everything is to reveal His Son which is the Image of LOVE itself. Humans were saved by Christ, but Christ existed before man needed Salvation. Jesus is everything.

Ram Nonsense - you claimed that I said GOD can lie - I said GOD is Omnipotent - hardly the same thing - you assumed and ran with it case closed and BTW I forgive you for your faux pax even if youyr pride prevents it. 

Jesus isnt Heaven - Heaven is a created place - GOD is greater.  Jesus is GOD - Just as GOD the Father is GOD just as the Holy Ghost is GOD When we say in the Apostles Creed Jesus Was Crucified died and was buried he "Descended into Hell" - did that then turn Hell into Heaven if Heaven is everywhere Jesus is?
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#86
(02-14-2010, 12:55 AM)Rosarium Wrote: It is great love to show love for those who one knows will not return it.

This is pretty much it for me.  If God did not create beings that would end up damned (by their own choice and actions) then He would not be God.  God is perfect and perfect love is as Rosarium says here.. giving it to someone who you know will not return it/appreciate it.  The ability to love them despite what they become.  It's like what G. K. Chesterton said, true charity is charity offered to the undeserving.  True forgiveness is giving it to the unforgivable.
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#87
(02-18-2011, 06:36 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote:
(02-17-2011, 06:00 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(02-17-2011, 03:53 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote:
(02-16-2011, 04:40 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: The purpose of creation is Jesus
My happiness is a benifit of that purpose. The catichism is contectually about why the individual was Born, and what his purpose is ...but
man was created to bring forth Christ.
You asserted that God could lie if he wanted too...I asserted that he could do no more then he could sin. He cannot lie because he can never stop being God.
There's nothing silly about properly posting in the forum, in fact the forum rules request proper quoting.

No the Purpose of Creation is HEAVEN.   If you dont get there you have let Jesus down.

There is no true Happiness until we GET to heaven - this world is a vale of tears.

And as for Man being born to bring forth Christ  - you have that Backwards.  Christ was born to Redeem Man from his defection from GOD By the sin of Adam and all that came with that Sin.

I never one time asserted anything of the sort and I hereby challenge you to Cut and paste SPECIFICALLY Where what you claim is found.  I never called GOD A Liar , but as of right now I am calling you one.   For the last and FINAL Time , I never said anything of the sort and I Demand you either post proof or retract your lie about what you claim I said.

I am not going to Comment on the balance because I have no reason to "defend" something I never said.  My suggestion - go back and reread what I wrote , its obvious you are not using the Forum the way it is intended - IE In context.   

I'll defend the things I say -  not the things you imagine.
I retract it if I said it I didnt. Show me and if your right Ill mea culpa. All I said was that God Cannot lie...you asserted there is nothing God cant do.
JESUS is HEAVEN....JESUS is the reason for everything...anywhere Jesus is there is Heaven.....the purpose of God the father creating everything is to reveal His Son which is the Image of LOVE itself. Humans were saved by Christ, but Christ existed before man needed Salvation. Jesus is everything.

Ram Nonsense - you claimed that I said GOD can lie - I said GOD is Omnipotent - hardly the same thing - you assumed and ran with it case closed and BTW I forgive you for your faux pax even if youyr pride prevents it.   

Jesus isnt Heaven - Heaven is a created place - GOD is greater.   Jesus is GOD - Just as GOD the Father is GOD just as the Holy Ghost is GOD When we say in the Apostles Creed Jesus Was Crucified died and was buried he "Descended into Hell" - did that then turn Hell into Heaven if Heaven is everywhere Jesus is?
All I asked brother is to show me the post or quote the thread where I said you said God is a liar. I actually cant find it...cause If I did assert or imply that I would be horribly wrong because I know you would never say that. WHat I was trying to assert was that your position has a certain logical conclusions. And one of them is that God COULD lie if he wanted too. Not that he did.
Also Heaven:
In Holy Scripture it is called:

the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:3),
the kingdom of God (Mark 9:46),
the kingdom of the Father (Matthew 13:43),
the kingdom of Christ (Luke 22:30),
the house of the Father (John 14:2),
city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12),
the holy place (Hebrews 9:12; D.V. holies),
paradise (2 Corinthians 12:4),
life (Matthew 7:14),
life everlasting (Matthew 19:16),
the joy of the Lord (Matthew 25:21),
crown of life (James 1:12),
crown of justice (2 Timothy  4:8  ),
crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4),
incorruptible crown (1 Corinthians 9:25),
great reward (Matthew 5:12),
inheritance of Christ (Ephesians 1:18),
eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).

While it may be accidentally true that Heaven has a border and defined location, it also may not be true at all. Not in the sense we corporal creatures comprehend time and space. When I say Jesus is heaven I speak the Truth that Jesus Spoke. Jesus said I am IN my Father and my Father is IN me......further the faithful are defined as those who are IN Christ. And that the Kingdome heaven is within...and that we the faithfull are part of the Mystical Body of Christ.....JESUS IS HEAVEN
As for Hell, the hell Jesus visited was not the hell of the damned but the old testament place abode of the dead...and yes when Christ descended into Hell it became Heaven for those captives who were Holy and Christs almighty majesty burned away all darkness and the fetters of death for His chosen.
I would suggest that it is your pride that makes you think your creation serves a seperate purpose beyond that of giving Glory to Jesus Christ. All creation was brought forth for HIS Glory not our happiness. God does not need our Love, but desires it for OUR GOOD.
Catholic Enyclopedia:
God made all things for His objective honour and glory. Every creature was to manifest His Divine perfections by becoming a likeness of God, each according to its capacity. But man is capable of becoming in the greatest and most perfect manner a likeness of God, when he knows and loves His infinite perfections with a knowledge and love analogous to God's own love and knowledge. Therefore man is created to know God and to love Him. Moreover, this knowledge and love is to be eternal; for such is man's capability and his calling, because his soul is immortal. Lastly, to know God and to love Him is the noblest occupation of the human mind, and consequently also its supreme happiness. Therefore man is created for eternal happiness; and he will infallibly attain it hereafter, unless, by sin, he renders himself unworthy of so high a destiny.
God made all things for His formal glory, which consists in the knowledge and love shown Him by rational creatures. Irrational creatures cannot give formal glory to God directly, but they should assist rational creatures in doing so. This they can do by manifesting God's perfections and by rendering other services; whilst rational creatures should, by their own personal knowledge and love of God, refer and direct all creatures to Him as their last end. Therefore every intelligent creature in general, and man in particular, is destined to know and love God for ever, though he may forfeit eternal happiness by sin.
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#88
(02-19-2011, 11:16 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(02-18-2011, 06:36 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote:
(02-17-2011, 06:00 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(02-17-2011, 03:53 PM)Malleus Haereticorum Wrote:
(02-16-2011, 04:40 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: The purpose of creation is Jesus
My happiness is a benifit of that purpose. The catichism is contectually about why the individual was Born, and what his purpose is ...but
man was created to bring forth Christ.
You asserted that God could lie if he wanted too...I asserted that he could do no more then he could sin. He cannot lie because he can never stop being God.
There's nothing silly about properly posting in the forum, in fact the forum rules request proper quoting.

No the Purpose of Creation is HEAVEN.   If you dont get there you have let Jesus down.

There is no true Happiness until we GET to heaven - this world is a vale of tears.

And as for Man being born to bring forth Christ  - you have that Backwards.  Christ was born to Redeem Man from his defection from GOD By the sin of Adam and all that came with that Sin.

I never one time asserted anything of the sort and I hereby challenge you to Cut and paste SPECIFICALLY Where what you claim is found.  I never called GOD A Liar , but as of right now I am calling you one.   For the last and FINAL Time , I never said anything of the sort and I Demand you either post proof or retract your lie about what you claim I said.

I am not going to Comment on the balance because I have no reason to "defend" something I never said.  My suggestion - go back and reread what I wrote , its obvious you are not using the Forum the way it is intended - IE In context.   

I'll defend the things I say -  not the things you imagine.
I retract it if I said it I didnt. Show me and if your right Ill mea culpa. All I said was that God Cannot lie...you asserted there is nothing God cant do.
JESUS is HEAVEN....JESUS is the reason for everything...anywhere Jesus is there is Heaven.....the purpose of God the father creating everything is to reveal His Son which is the Image of LOVE itself. Humans were saved by Christ, but Christ existed before man needed Salvation. Jesus is everything.

Ram Nonsense - you claimed that I said GOD can lie - I said GOD is Omnipotent - hardly the same thing - you assumed and ran with it case closed and BTW I forgive you for your faux pax even if youyr pride prevents it.   

Jesus isnt Heaven - Heaven is a created place - GOD is greater.   Jesus is GOD - Just as GOD the Father is GOD just as the Holy Ghost is GOD When we say in the Apostles Creed Jesus Was Crucified died and was buried he "Descended into Hell" - did that then turn Hell into Heaven if Heaven is everywhere Jesus is?
All I asked brother is to show me the post or quote the thread where I said you said God is a liar. I actually cant find it...cause If I did assert or imply that I would be horribly wrong because I know you would never say that. WHat I was trying to assert was that your position has a certain logical conclusions. And one of them is that God COULD lie if he wanted too. Not that he did.
Also Heaven:
In Holy Scripture it is called:

the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:3),
the kingdom of God (Mark 9:46),
the kingdom of the Father (Matthew 13:43),
the kingdom of Christ (Luke 22:30),
the house of the Father (John 14:2),
city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12),
the holy place (Hebrews 9:12; D.V. holies),
paradise (2 Corinthians 12:4),
life (Matthew 7:14),
life everlasting (Matthew 19:16),
the joy of the Lord (Matthew 25:21),
crown of life (James 1:12),
crown of justice (2 Timothy  4:8  ),
crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4),
incorruptible crown (1 Corinthians 9:25),
great reward (Matthew 5:12),
inheritance of Christ (Ephesians 1:18),
eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).

While it may be accidentally true that Heaven has a border and defined location, it also may not be true at all. Not in the sense we corporal creatures comprehend time and space. When I say Jesus is heaven I speak the Truth that Jesus Spoke. Jesus said I am IN my Father and my Father is IN me......further the faithful are defined as those who are IN Christ. And that the Kingdome heaven is within...and that we the faithfull are part of the Mystical Body of Christ.....JESUS IS HEAVEN
As for Hell, the hell Jesus visited was not the hell of the damned but the old testament place abode of the dead...and yes when Christ descended into Hell it became Heaven for those captives who were Holy and Christs almighty majesty burned away all darkness and the fetters of death for His chosen.
I would suggest that it is your pride that makes you think your creation serves a seperate purpose beyond that of giving Glory to Jesus Christ. All creation was brought forth for HIS Glory not our happiness. God does not need our Love, but desires it for OUR GOOD.
Catholic Enyclopedia:
God made all things for His objective honour and glory. Every creature was to manifest His Divine perfections by becoming a likeness of God, each according to its capacity. But man is capable of becoming in the greatest and most perfect manner a likeness of God, when he knows and loves His infinite perfections with a knowledge and love analogous to God's own love and knowledge. Therefore man is created to know God and to love Him. Moreover, this knowledge and love is to be eternal; for such is man's capability and his calling, because his soul is immortal. Lastly, to know God and to love Him is the noblest occupation of the human mind, and consequently also its supreme happiness. Therefore man is created for eternal happiness; and he will infallibly attain it hereafter, unless, by sin, he renders himself unworthy of so high a destiny.
God made all things for His formal glory, which consists in the knowledge and love shown Him by rational creatures. Irrational creatures cannot give formal glory to God directly, but they should assist rational creatures in doing so. This they can do by manifesting God's perfections and by rendering other services; whilst rational creatures should, by their own personal knowledge and love of God, refer and direct all creatures to Him as their last end. Therefore every intelligent creature in general, and man in particular, is destined to know and love God for ever, though he may forfeit eternal happiness by sin.

Well you are the one drawing that conclusion - I have yet to approach the original question as posed simply because it presupposes that GOD chooses to know a soul is going to Hell.

I think before you can ask a question like this - you should be required to prove that GOD knows in advance the final destiny of  every soul he creates because that aspect is no a GIVEN.  The question as posed is posed with that as a GIVEN.  Therefore - My response is not to the original question , but rather , to the fact that it is flawed and unanswerable as posed .  NOTHING you posted answers for that Flaw in the Question. So once again I say -  PROVE GOD CHOOSES TO KNOW.  And failing that - you lose the argument.
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#89
He cannot choose but to know. He is God Almighty, omnipotent, all knowing and seeing, omnisicient and omnipresent. It is the very Nature of the Godhead. That you would find this disputable is just strange...im sorry. Give me an example how God could CHOOSE not to know something?
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#90
(02-21-2011, 07:57 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: He cannot choose but to know. He is God Almighty, omnipotent, all knowing and seeing, omnisicient and omnipresent. It is the very Nature of the Godhead. That you would find this disputable is just strange...im sorry. Give me an example how God could CHOOSE not to know something?

Thats merely your opinion - so if you are commited to it - get to proving it.,
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