Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?
(02-14-2010, 04:37 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: And there is no need to have a saint to be the progenitor...
You know the question of this thread.

There is a need if you don't want souls in Hell.

No, that's not true.  If you don't want souls in hell, you give them a way to avoid it and hope they do the right thing.  That's what God did.

(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: I was giving an example of how the damned soul's existence isn't worthless just because he is damned at the end of his mortal life, but one can think of others.
I didn't say anything about worthless, the OP (and myself also very clearly) are talking about damnation, not 'worth' ???

No, the question was: "Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell?" and my answer is: "because it has worth".  God makes something that has value, even if it ends up damned.  Why wash your face if it will just get dirty again?  Well, because washing one's face has value - it reduces illness, makes one feel better, reduces the need for clearasil.

So, the answer is to the question as asked: God makes souls that are damned because they have worth before they are damned.  Only one way is in pro-creation.  The Devil was created as an angel, and he is damned, but he still has worth as "Satan" - the adversary, the accuser of man, the REAL devil's advocate who in justice points out constantly at our crappy nature.  God also uses him to try and test us and harden us as in the Book of Job.

Note that evil is not necessary, but it exists, and God makes use of what worth it has: this is a sign of contradiction, that the immense evil of deicide is used for our salvation.

(02-14-2010, 12:27 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: God creates the soul but with our involvement.  Human free will is involved in the creation of a new soul, and for God to prevent that would be interfering with our free will.  That's why he allows babies to be conceived who are later murdered in utero by their mothers.

Him deciding (hypothetically) to only populate human bodies with the souls of saints is not a violation of free will, any more than populating a single body with the soul of a saint is a violation of free will.

Well, yes, populating a single body purposefully with the soul of  a saint is a violation of free will because that soul is predestined to heaven by definition of being a saint before he lived, and that's not what happens.  Mary was not pre-destined to be the BVM; God knew she would, but she could still have said no.  That would not have been a sin on her part violating her Immaculate Conception because she was asked by God, and not commanded by God.

There is a difference between predestination and omniscience.  Predestination means God creates the outcome, omniscience means God knows the outcome.

Quote:If he can create one soul that will go to heaven (and he has and does), and that is not a violation of Augustine's free will to have created his soul thusly, why not all souls this way? You're stating what you wish to 'prove' by simply saying 'that's a violation of free will' ...how so?

Well, let's try looking at this using induction.

The first humans were Adam and Eve.  To truly give them free will and a free choice, God had to let them pick to eat the forbidden fruit or not.  They had to make a choice to be obedient or to sin.  If God made them Saints beforehand, they would have had no choice to pick the fruit or not, therefore they would not have had free will.

Assuming that seems logical, the next step is the effects of Original Sin - we have a propensity to sin.  Or, if you like, we are given the same opportunity as Adam and Eve - every day we are offered different forbidden fruits to accept or reject.  If God didn't allow us this choice, then we would not be as free as Adam and Eve which, among other things, would be unjust.  Therefore, God gives us all the choice to take forbidden fruit or not.  And to our children, and to our children's children.

So if you want to refute this, we have to go back to the first step and ask: why would God create Adam and Eve if He knew they would Fall?  because it is their fall that causes hell for human souls to exist in the first place.  And the answer, for me anyhow, is because He gave them the choice to love Him freely since Love that is not freely given is not really love.  It is a quid pro quo.  It is compulsed or engineered in, and has no authentic value.

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Re: Why would God create a soul he knows will go to Hell? - by Historian - 02-14-2010, 06:00 AM

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