Ave Maria Question
#1
Hi, question came up in our study group last night, someone brought a "new" missal that printed the Ave as "blessed are you among all women of earth" rather than the "blessed are you among women".  Any ideas?  Is this going to be the "new" way to say the Ave?  Oddly enough the Latin was printed side-by-side with English and "benedicta tu in mulieribus" was not changed at all wouldn't that make it "...in mulieribus et in terra"?
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#2
kthrun Wrote:Hi, question came up in our study group last night, someone brought a "new" missal that printed the Ave as "blessed are you among all women of earth" rather than the "blessed are you among women".  Any ideas?  Is this going to be the "new" way to say the Ave?  Oddly enough the Latin was printed side-by-side with English and "benedicta tu in mulieribus" was not changed at all wouldn't that make it "...in mulieribus et in terra"?

How's your Greek?

It may well be that the new translation you speak of is based on the actual text of the Gospel, rather than a translation of a Latin translation of the Bible. Either way, it's a tough move to make. Like the traditional English renderings of the Pater Noster and Gloria, the powers that be need to weigh on the one hand the accuracy of a translation versus the customs of the faithful. The traditional English Our Father has awkward, somewhat imprecise words (ie: "daily" as in "daily bread"), and the Gloria has weird phraseology like "world without end." Nevertheless, especially in regards to the English Our Father, the popular success of top-down translation changes is extremely unlikely.
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#3
[quote='Credo' pid='523311' dateline='1266446909']
How's your Greek?
[quote]

εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν  = eulogemene su en gunaixin  = blessed are you among  women

This is from the Textus Receptus (Greek in time of the KJV). The RSV, NIV and other new translations omit this part
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#4
glgas Wrote:εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν  = eulogemene su en gunaixin  = blessed are you among  women

Then the rendering kthrun has encoutered could be a dynamic translation. Or it could just be a plain bad one.

What I find interesting is that a publisher willing to issue a text with Latin would mess with customary translations. It just doesn't seem like a Latin-friendly printer would ever do. Go figure.

Quote:The ... NIV ... omit(s) this part

It does? The NIV sitting on my shelf uses the exact words, "blessed are you among  women."
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#5
(02-17-2010, 04:59 PM)kthrun Wrote: Hi, question came up in our study group last night, someone brought a "new" missal that printed the Ave as "blessed are you among all women of earth" rather than the "blessed are you among women".  Any ideas?  Is this going to be the "new" way to say the Ave?  Oddly enough the Latin was printed side-by-side with English and "benedicta tu in mulieribus" was not changed at all wouldn't that make it "...in mulieribus et in terra"?

Could it be that the new translation was intended to fit some verse or tune?
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#6
Some languages do this with the Ave, or something analagous

In Spanish: "bendita tu eres entre todas las mujeres (All women)
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#7
Sounds like revisionism to me.
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#8
(02-17-2010, 09:08 PM)Credo Wrote:
Quote:The ... NIV ... omit(s) this part

It does? The NIV sitting on my shelf uses the exact words, "blessed are you among  women."

My source is the blb.org translation
Luk 1:28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=1&v=28&t=NIV#28

Same is the RSV
Luk 1:28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" [fn]
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=1&t=ESV#28

Also I have the USB4 printed NRSV-Greek-NIV (John Kohlemberger editor 1993) neither that has the clause in the Greek or either of the translations

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#9
hmm it seems no one else has seen this.  I will have to write down the name of the missal & publisher next time I'm at the chapel. Whats even more odd is one of the girls in our group said that is how she learned it (all women of earth)...bizarre...and she grew up, she said, attending a Latin Church.

As far as the biblical references, the DR (Clementine) that I have is word for word identical (both Latin & English) as it is listed on FE Prayers & Creeds page.  I know the NAB is different and a couple of the other versions of the bible say "blessed ABOVE all women" or "most blessed of all women". Luke 1:48 btw.
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#10
I figured out our problem, glgas. We're citing two different episodes in the Bible. You're correctly referencing the dialogue between Angel Gabriel and Mary (Lk. 1:28), while I'm correctly referencing the dialogue between Elizabeth and Mary (Lk 1:42). Everyone is a winner.

The Latin phrase "benedicta tu in mulieribus" found in the Ave is based on Lk. 1:42, no?
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