A Question on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
#11
Round and round we go...

What's next, "modesty" or some obscure question about rubrics?
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#12
The Church is the Triumphant Church - Suffering Church - Militant Church. There are only two last places, the heaven (Triumphant Church) and the Hell. Those who are outside the Church in this sense are eternally in the hell, they have no salvation. The dogma is self evident, after accepting the definition of the Church and the Hell.

Jesus Christ, and only Jesus Christ is the judge. No one else. We are not Jews, there is no birthright or formal worldly acceptance right to the salvation.

The council of Florence defined that the explicit enemies of the Church, and those who deliberately chose to be outside of the militant Church with full knowledge of the truth about it and die in this state of mind,  do not get salvation.


(02-26-2010, 03:30 PM)Walty Wrote: Traditionally, where does "Outside the Church there is no salvation" leave Protestants (and non-Christians)? 
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#13
(02-27-2010, 05:37 AM)Benno Wrote: Round and round we go...

What's next, "modesty" or some obscure question about rubrics?

What does that mean Benno?  We shouldn't talk about the dogmas of the faith?
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#14
(02-27-2010, 04:02 AM)JonW Wrote: Maybe the question is: if they can be saved in their ignorance and "good faith", then why bother to catechize them?

The operative word in your statement is “can.”  Yes, non-Catholics CAN be saved.  But that requires an extraordinary process on God’s part.  He established a Church as the ordinary process of salvation.  We avoid His established process at our own considerable risk.

To illustrate: Yes, you can get from one side of New York to the other on a skate board.  Or you can buy a token and get there in a subway.  We should catechize New Yorkers to use the subway as their ordinary means of transport for their safety and efficiency. 

After all, it’s not just about getting to our heavenly destination in one piece.  We catechize others so that they can not just get there to the New Jerusalem but to get higher up into its high-rises with maximal sanctifying graces to tip the doorman and contribute to the communion of saints.  Salvation is NOT just about saving your ass from the barbeque pit. – Cheers, Albert Cipriani
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#15
(02-27-2010, 04:07 PM)albert Wrote:
(02-27-2010, 04:02 AM)JonW Wrote: Maybe the question is: if they can be saved in their ignorance and "good faith", then why bother to catechize them?

The operative word in your statement is “can.”  Yes, non-Catholics CAN be saved.  But that requires an extraordinary process on God’s part.  He established a Church as the ordinary process of salvation.  We avoid His established process at our own considerable risk.

To illustrate: Yes, you can get from one side of New York to the other on a skate board.  Or you can buy a token and get there in a subway.  We should catechize New Yorkers to use the subway as their ordinary means of transport for their safety and efficiency. 

After all, it’s not just about getting to our heavenly destination in one piece.  We catechize others so that they can not just get there to the New Jerusalem but to get higher up into its high-rises with maximal sanctifying graces to tip the doorman and contribute to the communion of saints.  Salvation is NOT just about saving your ass from the barbeque pit. – Cheers, Albert Cipriani

This I agree with 100%!
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#16
The DOGMA of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (No Salvation Outside the Church) is, in today's modern ecumenical neo-Church, the most misunderstood, misrepresented and outright denied dogma of the Faith.  This dogma has been so clearly defined that it leaves little to debate over.

The Catholic Church has solemnly defined three times by infallible declarations that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most explicit and forceful of the three came from Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

The other two infallible declarations are as follows: There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

On top of this, we have the unanimous consent of the Church Fathers on the subject, which holds GREAT weight.  So many Fathers, saints and popes of the past have commented on this

St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: "The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons."
St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved."

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): "All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!"

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "Outside the Church there is no salvation...therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins"...For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church ... How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!"

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science." (The dates for the two Popes are the years they reigned as Sovereign Pontiffs.)



This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ. This doctrine has been the consistent teaching of the Popes throughout the centuries.

It is up to each individual human person to seek God - this is hardwired into our very beings.  Any person who sincerely seeks God with an open and true heart will INEVITABLY be led to the Church that Christ established - the Holy Catholic Church.  I am not trying to boast, but take myself for example.  I was raised in a strictly Protestant family.  All of my relatives and their friends were ALL Fundamentalist Protestants.  I was raised to distrust the Catholic Church.  A few years back, I began growing tired of all the confusion in Christianity.  I did not know who to believe, I didn't know who had the authority.  I began to sincerely seek God, and I myself was led home - a person who was told so many evil things about Catholics.  It has been speculated by those in the Church that even if someone was in such a remote place as to be cut off from the rest of the world, and he or she sincerally sought out God, an angel from heaven would come down to convert him or her.  So, it is really up to the person.  People in today's Church give all kinds of excuses, but the dogma is clearly defined.  If there remained any excuse, then why would a Church be necessary?

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#17
(02-28-2010, 07:18 AM)Nic Wrote: The DOGMA of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (No Salvation Outside the Church) is, in today's modern ecumenical neo-Church, the most misunderstood, misrepresented and outright denied dogma of the Faith.  This dogma has been so clearly defined that it leaves little to debate over.

The Catholic Church has solemnly defined three times by infallible declarations that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most explicit and forceful of the three came from Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

The only thing what is missing from your otherwise excellent definition, that the quoted authorities referred exclusively to the temporary membership Militant Church, excluding the eternal membership to the Triumphant Church and the also temporary membership to the Suffering Church.

Quote:We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

Does this document covers the pontificate of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI or that is different matter?

The problem with the laicus (not magisterial)  interpretation of the Scriptures or Tradition is, that we see thing only in details, on at a time, and could miss the full truth emphasizing something which is particular only. We need the living Magisterium to direct us, and rejecting the living Magisterium of our times leaves as helpless, abandoned, separated from the Truth.

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#18
(02-28-2010, 08:29 AM)glgas Wrote:
Quote:We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

Does this document covers the pontificate of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI or that is different matter?


Of course it refers to all popes.  The only thing about the post-conciliar popes is that when they do, say or even teach something on a private level that goes strictly against the Faith of All-Time, then we are duty-bound as Catholics to resist.  Also, NOBODY, not even a pope, can command a Catholic to attend a sacrilegious Mass (the Novus Ordo Mass) or to accept novelties, even proposed by a non-infallible, non-Dogmatic PASTORAL council (Vatican II).  The papacy is a perpetual office, therefore submitting to the papacy is submitting to the papacy of all-time.  No one does this better than true, Traditional Catholics.
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#19
(02-28-2010, 09:40 AM)Nic Wrote: Of course it refers to all popes.  The only thing about the post-conciliar popes is that when they do, say or even teach something on a private level that goes strictly against the Faith of All-Time, then we are duty-bound as Catholics to resist.  Also, NOBODY, not even a pope, can command a Catholic to attend a sacrilegious Mass (the Novus Ordo Mass) or to accept novelties, even proposed by a non-infallible, non-Dogmatic PASTORAL council (Vatican II).  The papacy is a perpetual office, therefore submitting to the papacy is submitting to the papacy of all-time.  No one does this better than true, Traditional Catholics.

The only thing you must show  who and when made you (plural)  infallible judge when the popes say something on private level, and when is their statement infallible?

In my theology there are three levels:

- the extremely rare infallible statements (either by the pope or the councils)

- the most frequent non infallible but binding statement (so that who publicly contradict according to Matt 16:16-18 and eg.. Bonifave VIII statement exclude themselves from the salvation)

- private statement were publicized very rarely, except recently by the the evil media, which want to downplay the binding nature of the second category.


On the time when I learned theology from all the papal statement only the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption was considered infallible. From the councils the teaching around the Trinity, the Incarnation , the justification. and the papal infallibility for the above two cases. For my explicit question in 1959 what is the definition of the conciliar infallibility the professor answered no such definition, we need the living Magisterium.

I am ready to learn. Show me please from the sacred tradition that laypeople are authorized to define what is revealed truth. what kis not?
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#20
Nic, do those excellent quotes have sources?  I'd like to know where to find them in the saints' writings. 
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