Post V2 Catholic Evangelization
#11
Archbishop Lefebvre had no problem evangelizing in Africa with the Latin Mass prior to V2.
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#12
Ockham Wrote:The Church did a pretty good job in the past evangelizing with the Latin Mass,also known as Usus Antiquior.

I beg to differ. Despite the heroic efforts of folk down the ages, after 2000 years "Christianity" (by which we lump in Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, JW's and Mormons) has claimed just a little over 30% of the world's population.* How much of that number owes a tip of the hat to the '62 Missal and Breviary remains to be seen.

* Source:  Major Religions of the World Ranked by Number of Adherents - http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Ockham Wrote:Keep in mind many people who attend the NO don't believe in the Real Presence, don't go to Confession

One is hard pressed to find a practicing Christian who attends the revised Mass and Office who actually doesn't believe in the Real Presence and Confession. I don't have time to go into it right now, but the surveys that traditionalists often cite to show the supposed drop in belief in these things are very misleading, and were intentionally designed to be so.

Quote:pick and choose moral teaching like contraception, etc.

For decades before Humanae Vitae Catholic priests in the United States and Europe had been advising couples to use contraception. As such, the idea that the rise of the current anti-life mentality has something to do with the Novus Ordo Missae of Paul VI is incorrect.

franklinf Wrote:Well, I don't know if the "amazing spread" has been all that amazing. While the numbers have increased, the % has stayed flat.

In the last 100 years the number of Christians has literally risen by 6,708%. You did not read that wrong, that number of Catholics in Africa has risen in the last 100 years by 6,708%.* Anyway you parse it, that's amazing!

* Source: The Rise of Christianity in Africa: Does more churches mean more healing of the sick? - http://stanford.edu/class/humbio129s/cgi...-the-sick/

Funny, I was just thinking yesterday how some folk are so doom and gloom even awesome news like the rise of Christianity in the Africa and Asia is downplayed. BTW, by Asia we chiefly mean China.

Nic Wrote:And as far as post V2 evangelization, that is really nill these days.  We have been dealt with a major guilt complex, and evangelization in the post-conciliar Church is dealt with hesitantly, if not at all.

See above (and for heaven's sake, think outside of the West).
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#13
(03-16-2010, 09:08 PM)franklinf Wrote: You are obsessed with how many "Catholics" there are. The faith is not a numbers game. People go to heaven based on their beliefs and actions not whether or not they are a nominal Catholic.

So what if the vernacular brings together more people? Are they truly Catholic or are they just a warm body?

Stop supporting the sacrifice of truth for numbers.

Matt 22:8 8 Then he saith to his servants: The marriage indeed is ready; but they that were invited were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways; and as many as you shall find, call to the marriage. 10 And his servants going forth into the ways, gathered together all that they found, both bad and good: and the marriage was filled with guests.

Warm bodies present get the grace of the celebration, absent ones are excluded. In this parable from many only one was rejected for lack of the wedding garment.

According to the Council of Trident (Session 4 #783) the Scriptures are written as " dictation of the Holy Spirit". You too shall be obsessed with that. Every world, not just those which support your ideas.

How do the hard trads fulfill our Lord's command, to be the salt and light of the world? (Matt 5:13-14)
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#14
(03-16-2010, 08:57 PM)glgas Wrote: .

The vernacular masses even in the US bring together more people per priest that the Latin masses. In a diocesan Church in the suburbs there are 4-7 Sunday masses (including the anticipated Mass at Saturday night), in the Latin Mass Churches the average is less than 3 . The pastor of my territorial Parish says 7 masses in every Sunday, and except for the Sunday early morning and Sunday late evening Masses all ar full, and the mentioned two brings together more that 200 people each.

In North America prior to the 'spirit of Vatican II' radical changes including the NO, 3/4 Catholics went to weekly Mass.  Today that number is no higher than 1/4.  Seeing as the NO is the only Mass most people have available, it's clear it does not bring people together.  Many priests are reluctant to learn the UA so many of the faithful have to travel hours to get to one.  Not to worry though, the average age of the FSSP is 35. 
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#15
(03-17-2010, 06:12 AM)Credo Wrote: One is hard pressed to find a practicing Christian who attends the revised Mass and Office who actually doesn't believe in the Real Presence and Confession. I don't have time to go into it right now, but the surveys that traditionalists often cite to show the supposed drop in belief in these things are very misleading, and were intentionally designed to be so. 

I find them all the time.  Besides my ancedotal evidence you can also find independent surveys confirming the same thing.  The way we pray/worship is the way we believe.  The lack of reverence and rubics in the Novus Ordo produces a diminished belief structure in those who attend it.  The NO resembles a Lutheran service more than the UA so it's no wonder they share views on the Real Presence.  You would be hard pressed to find a UA participant who doesn't believe in transubstantiation.
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#16
(03-17-2010, 06:12 AM)Credo Wrote:
franklinf Wrote:Well, I don't know if the "amazing spread" has been all that amazing. While the numbers have increased, the % has stayed flat.

In the last 100 years the number of Christians has literally risen by 6,708%. You did not read that wrong, that number of Catholics in Africa has risen in the last 100 years by 6,708%.* Anyway you parse it, that's amazing!

* Source: The Rise of Christianity in Africa: Does more churches mean more healing of the sick? - http://stanford.edu/class/humbio129s/cgi...-the-sick/

Wasn't denying that the number increased. I was saying that as % of world population nothing has changed. How much is attributed simply to population growth?

Also, that statistic could be very misleading. What is the base number? From 100 to 7000 is roughly 6900%. Very insignificant. From 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 its only 50%. Percentage increases are heavily biased towards small numbers.
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#17
(03-17-2010, 06:12 AM)Credo Wrote: I beg to differ. Despite the heroic efforts of folk down the ages, after 2000 years "Christianity" (by which we lump in Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, JW's and Mormons) has claimed just a little over 30% of the world's population.* How much of that number owes a tip of the hat to the '62 Missal and Breviary remains to be seen.

JW's and Mormons aren't Christian, they are cults. The Protestants aren't true churches, as the current Pontiff has said. Much of Europe was re-Catholicized after the counter Reformation, when large territories that had gone over to Protestantism was reclaimed. Plus, many of the Amerindian tribes of current day Latin America were converted to Catholicism, and the Church has been decimated there since V II.



Ockham Wrote:Keep in mind many people who attend the NO don't believe in the Real Presence, don't go to Confession

Quote:One is hard pressed to find a practicing Christian who attends the revised Mass and Office who actually doesn't believe in the Real Presence and Confession. I don't have time to go into it right now, but the surveys that traditionalists often cite to show the supposed drop in belief in these things are very misleading, and were intentionally designed to be so.

Practicing Catholics usually at a hefty percentage rate believe in the Real Presence, but few who go to the Novus Ordo go to Confession. 


Quote:For decades before Humanae Vitae Catholic priests in the United States and Europe had been advising couples to use contraception. As such, the idea that the rise of the current anti-life mentality has something to do with the Novus Ordo Missae of Paul VI is incorrect.

Go to your average Novus Ordo parish, and you'll find few families headed by couples 40 years old and under who have more than three kids. This could be in some cases due to issues like infertility, but more often it's more than likely due to the fact they are practicing contraception. Relatively few priests who say the NOM preach against contraception in their homilies.

franklinf Wrote:Well, I don't know if the "amazing spread" has been all that amazing. While the numbers have increased, the % has stayed flat.

Quote:In the last 100 years the number of Christians has literally risen by 6,708%. You did not read that wrong, that number of Catholics in Africa has risen in the last 100 years by 6,708%.* Anyway you parse it, that's amazing!

* Source: The Rise of Christianity in Africa: Does more churches mean more healing of the sick? - http://stanford.edu/class/humbio129s/cgi...-the-sick/

Funny, I was just thinking yesterday how some folk are so doom and gloom even awesome news like the rise of Christianity in the Africa and Asia is downplayed. BTW, by Asia we chiefly mean China.

And as far as post V2 evangelization, that is really nill these days.  We have been dealt with a major guilt complex, and evangelization in the post-conciliar Church is dealt with hesitantly, if not at all

See above (and for heaven's sake, think outside of the West).
[/quote]

You keep conflating the terms "Catholic" and "Christian" which is at times misleading. Catholics are Christians, Orthodox are schismatics, Protestants do not belong to true churches, so any conversion to any Protestant denomination by anyone in Africa or Asia only means they are getting an incomplete and many times false messages.

As far as thinking outside the West, you sidestep the fact the Church has lost many adherents in Latin America, and even the Philippines is having a vocations crisis.
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#18
"The first study to catch the bishops' attention was commissioned by the Reverend Peter Stravinskas, a well-known Catholic apologist and editor of The Catholic Answer. In 1992, he obtained funds from the Saint Augustine Center Association and hired the Gallup Organization to conduct a national poll asking Catholics: "Which one of the following statements about Holy Communion do you think best reflects your belief?" Only 30 percent of the respondents chose the first option: "When receiving Holy Communion, you are really and truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, under the appearance of bread and wine" "

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1..._79305248/


Eucharist and Belief in the Real Presence
Nine in ten weekly Mass attendees (91 percent) say they believe that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist, compared to two-thirds of those who attend Mass less than weekly but at least once a month (65 percent), and four in ten of those attending Mass a few times a year or less (40 percent).  Among Catholics attending Mass at least once a month, the youngest generation of Catholics (born after 1981) has similar beliefs about the Eucharist as Pre-Vatican II Generation Catholics (born before 1943).

http://cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html


"There have been some discussions about the possibility of a personal relationship with God on this blog and others recently. Part of it was re-ignited by the recent Pew Forum Report on Religion in America that indicated that 29% of Catholics believe God is simply an "impersonal force," while 60% of self-described adult Catholics can clearly affirm that they believe in a personal God with whom they can have a relationship.

So let's look at a few numbers...
40% of adult Catholics do not believe a personal relationship with God is possible
43% of Catholics polled do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist
42% of adult Catholics pray a few times a week or less
57% of adult Catholics seldom or never read Scripture outside of religious services"
http://blog.siena.org/2008/07/personal-r...sence.html


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#19
Ockham Wrote:I find them all the time.  Besides my ancedotal evidence you can also find independent surveys confirming the same thing.  The way we pray/worship is the way we believe.  The lack of reverence and rubics in the Novus Ordo produces a diminished belief structure in those who attend it.   The NO resembles a Lutheran service more than the UA so it's no wonder they share views on the Real Presence.   You would be hard pressed to find a UA participant who doesn't believe in transubstantiation.

I'm busy right now, but this weekend I will discuss the points points you bring up. (Also, for the fellow I was going back and forth with on the nudist thread, I will respond this weekend too.) Things are not nearly as crisp as you make them out to be. Until then, I want to reemphasize that the surveys cited by particular groups of Catholics to show how much faith in the Real Presence has dropped is very misleading, and was designed to be so by those taking the survey. Stay tuned...
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#20
For everyone else, I will respond this weekend too. Quite busy now, I'm afraid...
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