New Anglican Nightmare
#11
(03-21-2010, 03:53 PM)ILoveChineseMoonCakes Wrote: Why are you and others concern yourselves with the Anglicans? After all, they are a Protestant Sect, and do not have valid orders.

Boy, I am so tempted to say something about the Novus Ordo in reply to your post, but I would probably get banned.   Too bad.   :censored:
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#12
(03-21-2010, 09:57 PM)mike6240 Wrote:
(03-21-2010, 03:53 PM)ILoveChineseMoonCakes Wrote: Why are you and others concern yourselves with the Anglicans? After all, they are a Protestant Sect, and do not have valid orders.

Boy, I am so tempted to say something about the Novus Ordo in reply to your post, but I would probably get banned.   Too bad.   :censored:

...me too.   ;D

But really - you won't get "banned" on this forum for stating that the Novus Ordo Mass is just as Protestant as the Anglican Mass.


...Come on, let it loose!  :safe:
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#13
(03-21-2010, 09:53 PM)Nic Wrote: He stated that "The goal is... one fold and one shepherd."  How is that our goal?  That goal has already been met 2,000 years ago.  When I posted, I knew full well that he meant the pope.  What I was stating is what I find myself stating many times over to neo-Caths, and that is that the Church already exists in perfect unity.  There is no striving for unity if it already perfectly exists.  There is only bringing those who exist outside of that unity within it (which should be one of the main jobs of every true Catholic).  This all has to do with the horrid Vatican II council and its wretched ambiguities / errors.

NO. The goal is:

Matt 28: 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

The one fold one shepherd will be fulfilled only after the last judgment,  until that we (Catholics)  have the clear obligation to teach everyone, and bring them inside the true Church. This needs talk, dialog, understanding and appreciating their values,  not judgment. We shall not lower our values, but neither should belive that we have values. That would be presumption, and unforgivable sin.
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#14
Good.

More division, more coming to their senses and coming home.
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#15
(03-21-2010, 10:18 PM)glgas Wrote:
(03-21-2010, 09:53 PM)Nic Wrote: He stated that "The goal is... one fold and one shepherd."  How is that our goal?  That goal has already been met 2,000 years ago.  When I posted, I knew full well that he meant the pope.  What I was stating is what I find myself stating many times over to neo-Caths, and that is that the Church already exists in perfect unity.  There is no striving for unity if it already perfectly exists.  There is only bringing those who exist outside of that unity within it (which should be one of the main jobs of every true Catholic).  This all has to do with the horrid Vatican II council and its wretched ambiguities / errors.

NO. The goal is:

Matt 28: 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

The one fold one shepherd will be fulfilled only after the last judgment,  until that we (Catholics)  have the clear obligation to teach everyone, and bring them inside the true Church. This needs talk, dialog, understanding and appreciating their values,  not judgment. We shall not lower our values, but neither should belive that we have values. That would be presumption, and unforgivable sin.

Your theological outlook screams Novus Ordo.

Presumption as an unforgivable sin - hmmm...that is a new one.  So much for rejection of the Holy Ghost being the only unforgivable sin.  O Wait, to presume things against heretics IS an unforgivable sin in the Novus Ordo.
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#16
(03-21-2010, 11:47 PM)Nic Wrote: Your theological outlook screams Novus Ordo.

Reading your sentence below, I'm wondering what your theological outlook is screaming...

Quote:Presumption as an unforgivable sin - hmmm...that is a new one.  So much for rejection of the Holy Ghost being the only unforgivable sin.  O Wait, to presume things against heretics IS an unforgivable sin in the Novus Ordo.

You need to study your theology.

From the Summa:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3021.htm#article2


Quote:Article 2. Whether presumption is a sin?

Objection 1. It would seem that presumption is not a sin. For no sin is a reason why man should be heard by God. Yet, through presumption some are heard by God, for it is written (Judith 9:17): "Hear me a poor wretch making supplication to Thee, and presuming of Thy mercy." Therefore presumption on God's mercy is not a sin.

Objection 2. Further, presumption denotes excessive hope. But there cannot be excess of that hope which is in God, since His power and mercy are infinite. Therefore it seems that presumption is not a sin.

Objection 3. Further, that which is a sin does not excuse from sin: for the Master says (Sent. ii, D, 22) that "Adam sinned less, because he sinned in the hope of pardon," which seems to indicate presumption. Therefore presumption is not a sin.

On the contrary, It is reckoned a species of sin against the Holy Ghost.

I answer that, As stated above (Question 20, Article 1) with regard to despair, every appetitive movement that is conformed to a false intellect, is evil in itself and sinful. Now presumption is an appetitive movement, since it denotes an inordinate hope. Moreover it is conformed to a false intellect, just as despair is: for just as it is false that God does not pardon the repentant, or that He does not turn sinners to repentance, so is it false that He grants forgiveness to those who persevere in their sins, and that He gives glory to those who cease from good works: and it is to this estimate that the movement of presumption is conformed.

Consequently presumption is a sin, but less grave than despair, since, on account of His infinite goodness, it is more proper to God to have mercy and to spare, than to punish: for the former becomes God in Himself, the latter becomes Him by reason of our sins.

Reply to Objection 1. Presumption sometimes stands for hope, because even the right hope which we have in God seems to be presumption, if it be measured according to man's estate: yet it is not, if we look at the immensity of the goodness of God.

Reply to Objection 2. Presumption does not denote excessive hope, as though man hoped too much in God; but through man hoping to obtain from God something unbecoming to Him; which is the same as to hope too little in Him, since it implies a depreciation of His power; as stated above (1, ad 1).

Reply to Objection 3. To sin with the intention of persevering in sin and through the hope of being pardoned, is presumptuous, and this does not diminish, but increases sin. To sin, however, with the hope of obtaining pardon some time, and with the intention of refraining from sin and of repenting of it, is not presumptuous, but diminishes sin, because this seems to indicate a will less hardened in sin.

From the CE:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm

Quote: These sins are commonly reckoned six: despair, presumption, impenitence or a fixed determination not to repent, obstinacy, resisting the known truth, and envy of another's spiritual welfare.

The sins against the Holy Ghost are said to be unpardonable

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#17
(03-21-2010, 12:24 PM)kimbaichan Wrote: http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2010/03...tmare.html

This week the Episcopal Church officially affirmed the election of Mary Glasspool the openly Lesbian bishop in Los Angeles. Not content with this horror a story emerges of the actions of the Episcopal Church towards traditionalist congregations. You can read the story at Midwest Conservative Journal. Be warned that some of this indignant bloggers's language is a bit salty, but the story really is pretty horrific.

I'm not sure I have all the details right, but more of the story of the Church of the Good Shepherd in Binhamton NY is told here. It seems that an Episcopal congregation which was traditional and thriving wanted to pull out of the Episcopal Church. The Episcopal authorities kicked them out of the building, instituted a lawsuit to claim all property and won. This included the sudden eviction of the pastor his wife and four children from the rectory. The congregation offered to buy the building from the Episcopal diocese and even offered three times over the assessed value. The Episcopalian hierarchy wouldn't budge. They got them out, including a clause that the building could never be sold to any group for Anglican style worship.

Meanwhile the local Catholic Church offered the congregation a building, the rector and his family a house and they now have a larger congregation in their new (and nicer building).

Here comes the killer: the diocese then sold the now empty Episcopal Church to the Muslims for a third of the asking price. They took the cross off the steeple, painted the door green, and the former Christian Church is now an Islamic Awareness Center. Other denominations have sold churches to Muslims, but MCJ rightly points out that no other denomination has actually evicted a thriving, growing Christian congregation with a lawsuit and then sold the building to Muslims.

The amazing irony of this is that they evicted faithful Anglicans who were opposed to the gay, feminist agenda of Episcopalianism only to sell the building to Muslims who are even harsher towards homosexualists and would never dream of having women clergy. So go figure.

People wonder why Pope Benedict is establishing the Anglican Ordinariate. It's because, despite the continuing ecumenical discussions, the Anglican Church is now so far gone that Catholics cannot really engage in any realistic attempts at unity. All that remains is for those Anglicans who wish to be part of the historic church to leave the rat infested sinking ship that is Anglicanism and salvage the treasures of their patrimony by coming into the Ordinariate.

If you are an Anglican reading this and you believe the historic faith, how much more will you put up with in your church? What else will it take to make you finally decide to follow your heart and join us in the Catholic faith?
Posted by Fr Longenecker at Friday, March 19, 2010

this is pretty much the same type of treatment the SSPX has received from N.O. Bishops throughout the years.
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#18
(03-22-2010, 01:53 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(03-21-2010, 11:47 PM)Nic Wrote: Your theological outlook screams Novus Ordo.

Reading your sentence below, I'm wondering what your theological outlook is screaming...

Quote:Presumption as an unforgivable sin - hmmm...that is a new one.  So much for rejection of the Holy Ghost being the only unforgivable sin.  O Wait, to presume things against heretics IS an unforgivable sin in the Novus Ordo.

You need to study your theology.

From the Summa:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3021.htm#article2


Quote:Article 2. Whether presumption is a sin?

Objection 1. It would seem that presumption is not a sin. For no sin is a reason why man should be heard by God. Yet, through presumption some are heard by God, for it is written (Judith 9:17): "Hear me a poor wretch making supplication to Thee, and presuming of Thy mercy." Therefore presumption on God's mercy is not a sin.

Objection 2. Further, presumption denotes excessive hope. But there cannot be excess of that hope which is in God, since His power and mercy are infinite. Therefore it seems that presumption is not a sin.

Objection 3. Further, that which is a sin does not excuse from sin: for the Master says (Sent. ii, D, 22) that "Adam sinned less, because he sinned in the hope of pardon," which seems to indicate presumption. Therefore presumption is not a sin.

On the contrary, It is reckoned a species of sin against the Holy Ghost.

I answer that, As stated above (Question 20, Article 1) with regard to despair, every appetitive movement that is conformed to a false intellect, is evil in itself and sinful. Now presumption is an appetitive movement, since it denotes an inordinate hope. Moreover it is conformed to a false intellect, just as despair is: for just as it is false that God does not pardon the repentant, or that He does not turn sinners to repentance, so is it false that He grants forgiveness to those who persevere in their sins, and that He gives glory to those who cease from good works: and it is to this estimate that the movement of presumption is conformed.

Consequently presumption is a sin, but less grave than despair, since, on account of His infinite goodness, it is more proper to God to have mercy and to spare, than to punish: for the former becomes God in Himself, the latter becomes Him by reason of our sins.

Reply to Objection 1. Presumption sometimes stands for hope, because even the right hope which we have in God seems to be presumption, if it be measured according to man's estate: yet it is not, if we look at the immensity of the goodness of God.

Reply to Objection 2. Presumption does not denote excessive hope, as though man hoped too much in God; but through man hoping to obtain from God something unbecoming to Him; which is the same as to hope too little in Him, since it implies a depreciation of His power; as stated above (1, ad 1).

Reply to Objection 3. To sin with the intention of persevering in sin and through the hope of being pardoned, is presumptuous, and this does not diminish, but increases sin. To sin, however, with the hope of obtaining pardon some time, and with the intention of refraining from sin and of repenting of it, is not presumptuous, but diminishes sin, because this seems to indicate a will less hardened in sin.

From the CE:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm

Quote: These sins are commonly reckoned six: despair, presumption, impenitence or a fixed determination not to repent, obstinacy, resisting the known truth, and envy of another's spiritual welfare.

The sins against the Holy Ghost are said to be unpardonable

Presumption in very CERTAIN cases can be equated with a sin against the Holy Ghost, but not EVERY presumption is an unforgivable sin, which is what I was referring to.  If I presumed that a piece of bread was moldy, would I be comitting the unforgivable sin?  If so, I am very well damned.  Also, to "presume" that Protestants need the Church for salvation, for one, isn't much of a presumption, but something that we can prove with infallible Dogma.

The way it is put here, almost anything can be shown to be somehow linked to be a sin against the Holy Ghost - it is just a matter of how far it goes.
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#19
(03-22-2010, 10:21 AM)Nic Wrote: Presumption in very CERTAIN cases can be equated with a sin against the Holy Ghost, but not EVERY presumption is an unforgivable sin, which is what I was referring to.  If I presumed that a piece of bread was moldy, would I be comitting the unforgivable sin?  If so, I am very well damned.  Also, to "presume" that Protestants need the Church for salvation, for one, isn't much of a presumption, but something that we can prove with infallible Dogma.

The way it is put here, almost anything can be shown to be somehow linked to be a sin against the Holy Ghost - it is just a matter of how far it goes.

I read it different.  glgas wrote: "neither should belive that we have values. That would be presumption, and unforgivable sin."

English isn't his first language, so sometimes we have to interpolate.

By saying "neither should belive that we have values" I believe he means "neither should we believe that we have value" - i.e., that our salvation is any more secure than a Protestant's just by virtue of correct belief, and if we do, we're holding onto a sinful aspect of presumption.  Because God judges us on both faith and works.

Maybe I read it wrong, but I think that's what he was saying....

In any case, those six sins are sins against the Holy Ghost in specific circumstances, obviously not in the general case.  Those vices have to be enacted against the Holy Ghost, so I disagree they can be applied to anything like presuming bread will turn moldy.  St. Thomas enumerated in what cases presumption is a sin against the Holy Ghost and doesn't mention moldy bread, does he?

But if you need it spelled out, here it is:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12403a.htm
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#20
(03-22-2010, 01:53 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: Reply to Objection 1. Presumption sometimes stands for hope, because even the right hope which we have in God seems to be presumption, if it be measured according to man's estate: yet it is not, if we look at the immensity of the goodness of God.

Reply to Objection 2. Presumption does not denote excessive hope, as though man hoped too much in God; but through man hoping to obtain from God something unbecoming to Him; which is the same as to hope too little in Him, since it implies a depreciation of His power; as stated above (1, ad 1).

Reply to Objection 3. To sin with the intention of persevering in sin and through the hope of being pardoned, is presumptuous, and this does not diminish, but increases sin. To sin, however, with the hope of obtaining pardon some time, and with the intention of refraining from sin and of repenting of it, is not presumptuous, but diminishes sin, because this seems to indicate a will less hardened in sin.

Thank you for posting this! It has cleared up some confusion I had.
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