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EENS
#21
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:30 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(03-23-2010, 08:34 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: If someone who is invincibly ignorant gets into heaven, they are then part of the Church Triumphant.  Before that, they are not part of the Church because to be part of the Church Militant requires valid Sacramental baptism - desire and blood do not count for that either.

Maybe I misunderstand you. Are you saying that an invincibly ignorant person would go to heaven at which point they would be part of the Church (Triumphant)?

That just sounds very circular to me because according to the teachings of the Church, no one who has no persevered within the bosom of the Church can be saved. The Church teaches that one must be part of the Church first in order to be saved, not that everyone who is saved is then part of the Church.

It's not circular...

Everyone in heaven is part of the Church Triumphant (by definition).
Therefore, if a pagan makes it to heaven,  he is part of the Church Triumphant.

What's missing is the when and how he got into the Church.

"according to the teachings of the Church, no one who has no persevered within the bosom of the Church can be saved"

See Denziger, ABL, etc., that I quoted above.  Someone who (visibly) dies as a pagan did not persevere within the bosom of the Church, did they?  Yet the claims above are that the pagan might be saved.

I think the Pope wrote this for an important reason:  "it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."    We should just accept the statement at face value and do what we are supposed to do for ourselves and others.  The Church may have stated the above solely to serve as a statement of truth and nothing actionable or presumable or anything else.

You know, someone might be able to hoist themselves out of a pit of vipers by a thread off a piece of clothing.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't be throwing them a rope, a ladder, and calling a helicopter.

Yes, but this was declared ex cathedra:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
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#22
(03-24-2010, 12:46 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:30 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(03-23-2010, 08:34 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: If someone who is invincibly ignorant gets into heaven, they are then part of the Church Triumphant.  Before that, they are not part of the Church because to be part of the Church Militant requires valid Sacramental baptism - desire and blood do not count for that either.

Maybe I misunderstand you. Are you saying that an invincibly ignorant person would go to heaven at which point they would be part of the Church (Triumphant)?

That just sounds very circular to me because according to the teachings of the Church, no one who has no persevered within the bosom of the Church can be saved. The Church teaches that one must be part of the Church first in order to be saved, not that everyone who is saved is then part of the Church.

It's not circular...

Everyone in heaven is part of the Church Triumphant (by definition).
Therefore, if a pagan makes it to heaven,  he is part of the Church Triumphant.

What's missing is the when and how he got into the Church.

"according to the teachings of the Church, no one who has no persevered within the bosom of the Church can be saved"

See Denziger, ABL, etc., that I quoted above.  Someone who (visibly) dies as a pagan did not persevere within the bosom of the Church, did they?  Yet the claims above are that the pagan might be saved.

I think the Pope wrote this for an important reason:  "it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."    We should just accept the statement at face value and do what we are supposed to do for ourselves and others.  The Church may have stated the above solely to serve as a statement of truth and nothing actionable or presumable or anything else.

You know, someone might be able to hoist themselves out of a pit of vipers by a thread off a piece of clothing.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't be throwing them a rope, a ladder, and calling a helicopter.

Yes, but this was declared ex cathedra:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

So it would seem one must be attached to the Church before death in order attain salvation.
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#23
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: It's not circular...

Everyone in heaven is part of the Church Triumphant (by definition).
Therefore, if a pagan makes it to heaven,  he is part of the Church Triumphant.

What's missing is the when and how he got into the Church.

Right, but that would come through an implicit baptism of desire which would mean that he was attached to the Church before death. If this is what you were saying originally, then I agree. But your statement earlier (that I was commenting on) indicated that one was saved because, after death, they were then technically part of the Church (Triumphant). I was just saying that the attachment of which you spoke has to come first.

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#24
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: See Denziger, ABL, etc., that I quoted above.  Someone who (visibly) dies as a pagan did not persevere within the bosom of the Church, did they?  Yet the claims above are that the pagan might be saved.

Well, they would have if implicit baptism of desire brought them into unity with the Church. We just wouldn't know it. Again, maybe you were saying that earlier, but you said:

"If someone who is invincibly ignorant gets into heaven, they are then part of the Church Triumphant.  Before that, they are not part of the Church because to be part of the Church Militant requires valid Sacramental baptism - desire and blood do not count for that either."

That indicated to me you were saying that because John Doe was in heaven, he was part of the Church so it all works out. But I was saying that it works the other way around. He needs to be part of the Church Militant first (somehow, perhaps by baptism of desire) in order to go to heaven in the first place.

Quote:I think the Pope wrote this for an important reason:  "it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."    We should just accept the statement at face value and do what we are supposed to do for ourselves and others.  The Church may have stated the above solely to serve as a statement of truth and nothing actionable or presumable or anything else.

Yes, I agree.
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#25
There is really too much to discuss and too little  I want to respond to because, well, I'm not interested in discussing EENS.  :laughing: In fact, over the years, that is a topic I mostly have not involved myself in because it seems that when people pick a side, there is no convincing them to come to the other side, no matter which side one is on.  And it is difficult to see a middle ground.

So, I've pretty much stated what I think.  Is it right?  Well, I think it is or I wouldn't believe it (duh).  But, as far as defending it or even explaining more of myself to people who agree with me, it's just not a topic of interest to me.

And part of that is because of what I said - in 99% of cases, it's just a theological pinhead question that serves the truth being stated.  In the 1% of cases where it applies, Christ does the judging, and we know He'll do a good job and doesn't need our second-guessing.

But in practical terms, we all know what we are supposed to do: save ourselves with God's help and save others with God's help.  We're Catholics, so invincible ignorance won't apply to us.

At the end of the day, saying one Rosary is probably worth more than 10,000 hours of debate and discussion on EENS.  That's my $0.02 anyhow....  So I probably won't respond much more on this thread.  :shrug:
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#26
(03-24-2010, 12:55 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: See Denziger, ABL, etc., that I quoted above.  Someone who (visibly) dies as a pagan did not persevere within the bosom of the Church, did they?  Yet the claims above are that the pagan might be saved.

Well, they would have if implicit baptism of desire brought them into unity with the Church. We just wouldn't know it. Again, maybe you were saying that earlier, but you said:

"If someone who is invincibly ignorant gets into heaven, they are then part of the Church Triumphant.  Before that, they are not part of the Church because to be part of the Church Militant requires valid Sacramental baptism - desire and blood do not count for that either."

That indicated to me you were saying that because John Doe was in heaven, he was part of the Church so it all works out. But I was saying that it works the other way around. He needs to be part of the Church Militant first (somehow, perhaps by baptism of desire) in order to go to heaven in the first place.

OK, I'll explain what I meant here just to be clear.

In my understanding, Baptism of Desire does not make one part of the Church Militant because it is not Sacramental Baptism - it confers grace, but not membership.

Quote:The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water  (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

So if someone is saved by Baptism of Desire (or Blood), by my understanding, they are not part of the Church Militant because they have not received Sacramental Baptism.
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#27
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: You know, someone might be able to hoist themselves out of a pit of vipers by a thread off a piece of clothing.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't be throwing them a rope, a ladder, and calling a helicopter.

Right. But if the rope, the ladder, and the helicopter are the sacraments then what's the piece of string?
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#28
(03-24-2010, 02:26 AM)Walty Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: You know, someone might be able to hoist themselves out of a pit of vipers by a thread off a piece of clothing.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't be throwing them a rope, a ladder, and calling a helicopter.

Right. But if the rope, the ladder, and the helicopter are the sacraments then what's the piece of string?

The grace that remits sins (see above).
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#29
(03-24-2010, 12:46 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:30 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(03-23-2010, 08:34 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: If someone who is invincibly ignorant gets into heaven, they are then part of the Church Triumphant.  Before that, they are not part of the Church because to be part of the Church Militant requires valid Sacramental baptism - desire and blood do not count for that either.

Maybe I misunderstand you. Are you saying that an invincibly ignorant person would go to heaven at which point they would be part of the Church (Triumphant)?

That just sounds very circular to me because according to the teachings of the Church, no one who has no persevered within the bosom of the Church can be saved. The Church teaches that one must be part of the Church first in order to be saved, not that everyone who is saved is then part of the Church.

It's not circular...

Everyone in heaven is part of the Church Triumphant (by definition).
Therefore, if a pagan makes it to heaven,  he is part of the Church Triumphant.

What's missing is the when and how he got into the Church.

"according to the teachings of the Church, no one who has no persevered within the bosom of the Church can be saved"

See Denziger, ABL, etc., that I quoted above.  Someone who (visibly) dies as a pagan did not persevere within the bosom of the Church, did they?  Yet the claims above are that the pagan might be saved.

I think the Pope wrote this for an important reason:  "it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."    We should just accept the statement at face value and do what we are supposed to do for ourselves and others.  The Church may have stated the above solely to serve as a statement of truth and nothing actionable or presumable or anything else.

You know, someone might be able to hoist themselves out of a pit of vipers by a thread off a piece of clothing.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't be throwing them a rope, a ladder, and calling a helicopter.

Yes, but this was declared ex cathedra:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

How do you know this is ex cathedra?  What is or isn't seems somewhat ambiguous before clarifications of precisely when ex cathedra statements happen (or what constitutes them) before Vatican I.

Was it accepted as such prior to VII?  Are you aware of any lists of ex cathedra statements according to traditional theologians?
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#30
(03-24-2010, 01:26 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:55 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(03-24-2010, 12:44 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: See Denziger, ABL, etc., that I quoted above.  Someone who (visibly) dies as a pagan did not persevere within the bosom of the Church, did they?  Yet the claims above are that the pagan might be saved.

Well, they would have if implicit baptism of desire brought them into unity with the Church. We just wouldn't know it. Again, maybe you were saying that earlier, but you said:

"If someone who is invincibly ignorant gets into heaven, they are then part of the Church Triumphant.  Before that, they are not part of the Church because to be part of the Church Militant requires valid Sacramental baptism - desire and blood do not count for that either."

That indicated to me you were saying that because John Doe was in heaven, he was part of the Church so it all works out. But I was saying that it works the other way around. He needs to be part of the Church Militant first (somehow, perhaps by baptism of desire) in order to go to heaven in the first place.

OK, I'll explain what I meant here just to be clear.

In my understanding, Baptism of Desire does not make one part of the Church Militant because it is not Sacramental Baptism - it confers grace, but not membership.

Quote:The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water  (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

So if someone is saved by Baptism of Desire (or Blood), by my understanding, they are not part of the Church Militant because they have not received Sacramental Baptism.

But the only way that Trent's reference to Baptism of Desire, the universal magisterium's teachings of it, and the dogma of EENS can be reconciled is if they mean that a soul is part of the Church Militant through implicit Baptism of Desire. If it was not so, how could they be saved by Baptism of Desire because, according to the Council of Florence and extra ecclesiam nulla salus, it is absolutely necessary that one be part of the Church Militant (perhaps in an invisible way through BoD) before becoming part of the Church Triumphant.

I mean, I see what you saying by the quote above, but the Church has stated that attachment to Her before death is absolutely necessary for salvation. It would be very handy to say that one who goes to heaven is part of the Church (Triumphant), but it is only through attachment to the Church that one can become part of the Church Triumphant.
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