Is it rational, reasonable, and logical to believe in God?
#31
(03-28-2010, 12:53 AM)albert Wrote: So why does God value our Faith in Him rather than our knowledge of Him?  That’s an even more interesting question. – Cheers, Albert Cipriani

The answer is that the former elicits humility while the latter fosters pride.
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#32
(03-28-2010, 01:01 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: The answer is that the former elicits humility while the latter fosters pride.

Nah.  That confuses ends with means. 

God acts out of metaphysical necessities, not out of our moral or sentimental considerations.  Another way to say this is that what He does He does as a function of His being His reality.  Besides, if God could infuse us with the sure knowledge of Him, He could also infuse us with the humility to avoid pride. 

The point is that God’s plan is all about freely choosing to love Him.  And if we know Him too well, we would not have the freedom not to love Him.  Ergo, He keeps his distance, keeps His lovers in the dark in order that they may be faithful spouses rather than knowledgeable automatons.  – Cheers, Albert Cipriani
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#33
(03-28-2010, 01:32 AM)albert Wrote: Nah.  That confuses ends with means. 

God acts out of metaphysical necessities, not out of our moral or sentimental considerations.  Another way to say this is that what He does He does as a function of His being His reality.  Besides, if God could infuse us with the sure knowledge of Him, He could also infuse us with the humility to avoid pride. 

The point is that God’s plan is all about freely choosing to love Him.  And if we know Him too well, we would not have the freedom not to love Him.  Ergo, He keeps his distance, keeps His lovers in the dark in order that they may be faithful spouses rather than knowledgeable automatons.  – Cheers, Albert Cipriani

Good one 'Bert,
One of the first Q/A's in the old Penny Catechism says:  "God made me to know Him, love Him and serve Him here on earth......" Clearly one can't love or serve what one knows nothing about. However, that Knowledge (Gift of the Holy Ghost) need not be a purely intellectual thing.
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#34
Clearly one can't love or serve what one knows nothing about.
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To attempt to do so would most likely turn one into a Mohammedan suicide bomber.
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#35
Albert,

Vatican I; Dei Filius 2 Wrote:Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason.

Romans 1:20 Wrote:Ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely, His eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.

St. Thomas, ST I, 2, 2 Wrote:The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith but preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature and perfection the perfectible.
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#36
(03-27-2010, 07:06 PM)Walty Wrote: To prove the existence of a God (as opposed to The God of Christianity)

To me, this statement comes across sounding like it is two different Gods. The God that can be discovered through reason is the one and only God. I think I get where you're coming from, but it might be better to say one can know of God through reason, but one can only know God through faith by receiving His revelation, especially the Word made flesh.

I think this fits well with what St. Paul said of the pagans with an altar to God--he said he preached Who they worshiped without knowing. There's another line in Scripture too where it says of Jews (correct me if I'm wrong): "We worship what we know; you worship what you know not."

This also how, in his commentary on St. John, St. Thomas reconciles the apparent contradiction between the verse that says one cannot know the Father without knowing the Son and the verse in Romans saying God can be known through nature.

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#37
Faith is necessary for salvation in addition to knowledge of God because faith creates the proper relationship between God and man and makes man receptive to God's saving plan. Adam and Eve are a counter-example. God said don't eat the fruit. They found this unreasonable and placed their faith in  themselves and the serpent instead of the omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving God. Thus man exalted himself above God, essentially. On the other hand, God presented the Blessed Virgin with an equally unreasonable proposition, and instead she responded with the act of faith which brought salvation to the world and began the restoration of that proper relationship with God that had been destroyed by sin and faithlessness.
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#38
(03-28-2010, 07:28 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(03-27-2010, 07:06 PM)Walty Wrote: To prove the existence of a God (as opposed to The God of Christianity)

To me, this statement comes across sounding like it is two different Gods. The God that can be discovered through reason is the one and only God. I think I get where you're coming from, but it might be better to say one can know of God through reason, but one can only know God through faith by receiving His revelation, especially the Word made flesh.

I think this fits well with what St. Paul said of the pagans with an altar to God--he said he preached Who they worshiped without knowing. There's another line in Scripture too where it says of Jews (correct me if I'm wrong): "We worship what we know; you worship what you know not."

This also how, in his commentary on St. John, St. Thomas reconciles the apparent contradiction between the verse that says one cannot know the Father without knowing the Son and the verse in Romans saying God can be known through nature.

Yes, they are the same God but one is a shallow and superficial understanding which can say little about Him except for His existence.  This is the Primary Mover of Aristotle or the Supreme Good of Plato.  It's merely the distinction between knowing that God exists and knowing that He is the Christian Deity, the Trinity, and all the things of revelation and faith that go with it.
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#39
"And if we know Him too well, we would not have the freedom not to love Him."

That apparently did not work well for the angels.
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#40
(03-26-2010, 06:43 PM)Walty Wrote: Either at some point something came from nothing or you have infinite regression as Stephen Hawking popularized with the quip that it's "turtles all the way down."
:o

WHO THE HECK IS STEPHEN HAWKING?!!

[Image: turtles.jpg]
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