Our Lady, a Jewish mother?
#31
(03-31-2010, 08:39 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 08:18 PM)alaric Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 02:13 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: Our Lady is assumed soul and body into heaven, and with all her ethnicity and Hebraic identity. She is what she was and always will be. She no longer practices Old Testament Judaism, but she is still a Jewish mother, of the lineage and house of David. She regards all her children as "the seed of Abraham" - as proclaimed in her Magnificat.
She is referring in a spiritual sense.

What's this obsession with believing that BVM will be some kind of Yiddish mom for all eternity?

How can BVM be mother to us all if she maintains her "jewishness" in heaven?

That is not a good scenario in my book.

The "spiritual sense" of the seed of Abraham is exactly what I was referring to. Who said anything about Yiddish? Mary has a human identity. So does Christ. They maintain their human identity in heaven, and indeed for all of eternity, just as we will when we rise again from the dead.

Some people point to St. Paul in Galatians who said that in Christ there is no Jew or Greek. This means that all share equal dignity in Christ. But this does not mean we will lose our ethnicity in the New Creation. St. Paul also says there is no male or female. Will we lose our gender in the next world? What makes you think we will lose our ethnicity?
If we lose our gender in the next world, how can she still be a mother? That is still referring to gender isn't it?

So when you say "jew" you mean in the biological sense then. I thought Jews weren't a race but a religion, I guess they can have it both ways when it's convenient for them. It seems to me that Jews are probably a race and their religion is Judaism, but both are not the same now as they were during the time of Jesus or maybe they were a sect within the Hebrews as Credo pointed out.

And if we maintain our ethnicity in the next life, then I guess race does matter in this one. We can't have it both ways. And that may very well be the case, but also, we will have glorified bodies in which our ethnicity won't so much matter maybe. I don't know. I also don't know what Church teaching is on all of this.
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#32
(03-31-2010, 08:42 PM)Credo Wrote:
alaric Wrote:There were Hebrews and then there were/are Jews.

I believe all 12 tribes together were considered Hebrews, while members of the single tribe of Judah were known as Jews. Since Christ is called "the lion of the tribe of Judah," one can only presume he belongs to that tribe, as did his parents.
Yes, he is descended from Judah. Also described as "King of the Jews," obviously, and praised one of his disciples as "a real Jew," etc.
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#33
(03-31-2010, 09:17 PM)alaric Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 08:39 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 08:18 PM)alaric Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 02:13 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: Our Lady is assumed soul and body into heaven, and with all her ethnicity and Hebraic identity. She is what she was and always will be. She no longer practices Old Testament Judaism, but she is still a Jewish mother, of the lineage and house of David. She regards all her children as "the seed of Abraham" - as proclaimed in her Magnificat.
She is referring in a spiritual sense.

What's this obsession with believing that BVM will be some kind of Yiddish mom for all eternity?

How can BVM be mother to us all if she maintains her "jewishness" in heaven?

That is not a good scenario in my book.

The "spiritual sense" of the seed of Abraham is exactly what I was referring to. Who said anything about Yiddish? Mary has a human identity. So does Christ. They maintain their human identity in heaven, and indeed for all of eternity, just as we will when we rise again from the dead.

Some people point to St. Paul in Galatians who said that in Christ there is no Jew or Greek. This means that all share equal dignity in Christ. But this does not mean we will lose our ethnicity in the New Creation. St. Paul also says there is no male or female. Will we lose our gender in the next world? What makes you think we will lose our ethnicity?
If we lose our gender in the next world, how can she still be a mother? That is still referring to gender isn't it?

So when you say "jew" you mean in the biological sense then. I thought Jews weren't a race but a religion, I guess they can have it both ways when it's convenient for them. It seems to me that Jews are probably a race and their religion is Judaism, but both are not the same now as they were during the time of Jesus or maybe they were a sect within the Hebrews as Credo pointed out.

And if we maintain our ethnicity in the next life, then I guess race does matter in this one. We can't have it both ways. And that may very well be the case, but also, we will have glorified bodies in which our ethnicity won't so much matter maybe. I don't know. I also don't know what Church teaching is on all of this.

Well, I'm not sure ethnicity will really matter in Heaven. We will all be "Jewish" in the only sense that it matters -- the spiritual sense.
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#34
(03-31-2010, 03:17 PM)stvincentferrer Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 03:12 PM)Anthem Wrote: I agree with you stvincentferrer, that calling the BVM "our Jewish mother" is at least unusual (I have never seen it) in traditional Catholic writings.

I haven't either, anthem.

Well, I've seen lots of trads that have a bumperstick that reads "My boss is a Jewish Carpenter."  :shrug:
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#35
(03-31-2010, 09:17 PM)alaric Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 08:39 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 08:18 PM)alaric Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 02:13 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: Our Lady is assumed soul and body into heaven, and with all her ethnicity and Hebraic identity. She is what she was and always will be. She no longer practices Old Testament Judaism, but she is still a Jewish mother, of the lineage and house of David. She regards all her children as "the seed of Abraham" - as proclaimed in her Magnificat.
She is referring in a spiritual sense.

What's this obsession with believing that BVM will be some kind of Yiddish mom for all eternity?

How can BVM be mother to us all if she maintains her "jewishness" in heaven?

That is not a good scenario in my book.

The "spiritual sense" of the seed of Abraham is exactly what I was referring to. Who said anything about Yiddish? Mary has a human identity. So does Christ. They maintain their human identity in heaven, and indeed for all of eternity, just as we will when we rise again from the dead.

Some people point to St. Paul in Galatians who said that in Christ there is no Jew or Greek. This means that all share equal dignity in Christ. But this does not mean we will lose our ethnicity in the New Creation. St. Paul also says there is no male or female. Will we lose our gender in the next world? What makes you think we will lose our ethnicity?
If we lose our gender in the next world, how can she still be a mother? That is still referring to gender isn't it?

So when you say "jew" you mean in the biological sense then. I thought Jews weren't a race but a religion, I guess they can have it both ways when it's convenient for them. It seems to me that Jews are probably a race and their religion is Judaism, but both are not the same now as they were during the time of Jesus or maybe they were a sect within the Hebrews as Credo pointed out.

And if we maintain our ethnicity in the next life, then I guess race does matter in this one. We can't have it both ways. And that may very well be the case, but also, we will have glorified bodies in which our ethnicity won't so much matter maybe. I don't know. I also don't know what Church teaching is on all of this.

Why is this difficult to grasp? I'm saying that Mary is as much a woman in heaven as she was a woman on earth. She is as much a Hebrew or a Jew - whatever term you want to use, Alaric. When I rise again I will still be a woman, and probably white of Germanic descent like I am now. Why would I be an Ethiopian or an Oriental? Why would Mary be anything other than a Jewess? I don't think there's an official Church teaching on this, but it would seem strange to me that we would all be genderless and raceless when we rise again. God made us a people of many colors, or who became many colors, and what HE made was good. Only man, in his sin, sees racial differences as something negative.

In terms of religion, there is only one true Faith since God laid the foundations of the world. He didn't reveal it immediately, but began with a covenant with Abraham. That God chose a people, a nation, is His doings. If he was to take on human flesh he, too, would have a race, a history, as we all do. The temple sacrifices, the feasts, the law, the prophets all pointed to the Incarnate Word who revealed the Faith in its fullness. Whoever is in heaven possesses the Faith - and none hold it more than Our Blessed Mother.
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#36
(03-31-2010, 09:18 PM)Satori Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 08:42 PM)Credo Wrote:
alaric Wrote:There were Hebrews and then there were/are Jews.

I believe all 12 tribes together were considered Hebrews, while members of the single tribe of Judah were known as Jews. Since Christ is called "the lion of the tribe of Judah," one can only presume he belongs to that tribe, as did his parents.
Yes, he is descended from Judah. Also described as "King of the Jews," obviously, and praised one of his disciples as "a real Jew," etc.
If he descended from Judah, he would be known more as a Judahite. The inscription above the cross was translated as "King of the Judeans" in which Pilate was mocking Jesus as ruling the Judeans, but he was really a Galilean. Jews as we know them, didn't even exist in Palestine at that point in time, there were Judeans who were descended from the Edomites, not a popular tribe in prophecies in the O.T. Those whom some today call "jews" from the time of Jesus were really Judeans who were within a religious sect known as Phariseeism in which Jesus condemned continuously even calling them "snakes", 'serpents" and "vipers".

No where in scripture is Jesus referred to as a Jew that I know.

And which disciple did Jesus call "a real Jew" and which verse?
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#37
(03-31-2010, 09:36 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: Well, I've seen lots of trads that have a bumperstick that reads "My boss is a Jewish Carpenter."  :shrug:

I've seen that on prottie bumpers, but never on any Catholic bumper; I belong to a very large parish.  But then, I know so few traditional Catholics locally that my sample would not be scientifically valid with regard to traditional Catholics.  Of course, I think bumper stickers are stupid anyway, but what do I know?  My bumper sticker might read something like "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", but I don't want to cause a ruckus.
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#38
(03-31-2010, 09:47 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 09:17 PM)alaric Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 08:39 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 08:18 PM)alaric Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 02:13 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: Our Lady is assumed soul and body into heaven, and with all her ethnicity and Hebraic identity. She is what she was and always will be. She no longer practices Old Testament Judaism, but she is still a Jewish mother, of the lineage and house of David. She regards all her children as "the seed of Abraham" - as proclaimed in her Magnificat.
She is referring in a spiritual sense.

What's this obsession with believing that BVM will be some kind of Yiddish mom for all eternity?

How can BVM be mother to us all if she maintains her "jewishness" in heaven?

That is not a good scenario in my book.

The "spiritual sense" of the seed of Abraham is exactly what I was referring to. Who said anything about Yiddish? Mary has a human identity. So does Christ. They maintain their human identity in heaven, and indeed for all of eternity, just as we will when we rise again from the dead.

Some people point to St. Paul in Galatians who said that in Christ there is no Jew or Greek. This means that all share equal dignity in Christ. But this does not mean we will lose our ethnicity in the New Creation. St. Paul also says there is no male or female. Will we lose our gender in the next world? What makes you think we will lose our ethnicity?
If we lose our gender in the next world, how can she still be a mother? That is still referring to gender isn't it?

So when you say "jew" you mean in the biological sense then. I thought Jews weren't a race but a religion, I guess they can have it both ways when it's convenient for them. It seems to me that Jews are probably a race and their religion is Judaism, but both are not the same now as they were during the time of Jesus or maybe they were a sect within the Hebrews as Credo pointed out.

And if we maintain our ethnicity in the next life, then I guess race does matter in this one. We can't have it both ways. And that may very well be the case, but also, we will have glorified bodies in which our ethnicity won't so much matter maybe. I don't know. I also don't know what Church teaching is on all of this.

Why is this difficult to grasp? I'm saying that Mary is as much a woman in heaven as she was a woman on earth. She is as much a Hebrew or a Jew - whatever term you want to use, Alaric. When I rise again I will still be a woman, and probably white of Germanic descent like I am now. Why would I be an Ethiopian or an Oriental? Why would Mary be anything other than a Jewess? I don't think there's an official Church teaching on this, but it would seem strange to me that we would all be genderless and raceless when we rise again. God made us a people of many colors, or who became many colors, and what HE made was good. Only man, in his sin, sees racial differences as something negative.

In terms of religion, there is only one true Faith since God laid the foundations of the world. He didn't reveal it immediately, but began with a covenant with Abraham. That God chose a people, a nation, is His doings. If he was to take on human flesh he, too, would have a race, a history, as we all do. The temple sacrifices, the feasts, the law, the prophets all pointed to the Incarnate Word who revealed the Faith in its fullness. Whoever is in heaven possesses the Faith - and none hold it more than Our Blessed Mother.
I agree with most of this Lisa, but I refuse to believe that Mary will be a "Jewess" as we know them today, I can't fathom that.

Maybe in your eyes this makes me a heretic, but I don't believe for a second that the young Hebrew girl who gave birth to the son of God belonged to the same ilk of those today calling themselves "jews". That is pure deception.
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#39
(03-31-2010, 09:59 PM)alaric Wrote: I agree with most of this Lisa, but I refuse to believe that Mary will be a "Jewess" as we know them today, I can't fathom that.

Maybe in your eyes this makes me a heretic, but I don't believe for a second that the young Hebrew girl who gave birth to the son of God belonged to the same ilk of those today calling themselves "jews". That is pure deception.

Mary is the Mother of All, just as Jesus is the Savior of All. But that doesn't negate their human identity. I think we are in agreement, only I don't see "Mary as Jewess" as meaning a practitioner of Judaism today. I don't think WRC was making the association of modern Judaism (or Yiddish-ism) when he called Mary a "Jewish Mother" .
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#40
(03-31-2010, 09:56 PM)Anthem Wrote:
(03-31-2010, 09:36 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: Well, I've seen lots of trads that have a bumperstick that reads "My boss is a Jewish Carpenter."  :shrug:

I've seen that on prottie bumpers, but never on any Catholic bumper; I belong to a very large parish.  But then, I know so few traditional Catholics locally that my sample would not be scientifically valid with regard to traditional Catholics.  Of course, I think bumper stickers are stupid anyway, but what do I know?  My bumper sticker might read something like "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", but I don't want to cause a ruckus.

This is an SSPX chapel.  An EENS one would go over well there, too.  :)

But, yeah, I hate bumperstickers personally.  I would never have one.
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