Well, Hello. Refugee from the Anglicans, here.
(04-03-2010, 11:02 PM)No3456 Wrote: He was an Anglican and he wasn't supposed to do that.

That's not trolling.  Trolling is causing trouble.  I'm just relating what my family's experiences were.

But if your attitude is characteristic of this place, I'll gladly leave.  My experience is my experience.

I didn't sign up for this.

: )

My attitude is to defend my faith  (The only faith founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ) when it is attacked (and not in a very clever way, might I add...) And now I will take my own advice and stop feeding the troll....bye troll.... :pazzo:.

I did not attack your faith.  I reported what other people did and do.

Consider me gone.  I simply don't have to put up with that sort of stuff.

Greetings. Always good to find a fellow C of Eer come to their senses.

It's just unbelievable what Tavistock has done to derail the faithful.

Welcome! :)
I don't think you're a troll, and I'm usually more than willing to ascribe to sincere confusion what otherwise can be taken as malice.

Your question regarding hierarchy shouldn't be dismissed, as the hierarchical nature of the Church is one aspect that sets Her apart quite dramatically from those institutions born from the upheaval of the Reformation (though not all are anti-hierarchical).

I am by no means the best equipped to answer, but I can provide a brief sketch of how some possible arguments might be made:

1. Naturalness and pervasiveness of hierarchy- appeal to the hierarchy of God and nature (God, man, and the beasts); the human family with the headship of man; universality of human social hierarchies and hierarchical political order; hierarchy among the angels.

2. Scriptural- hierarchy within the Old Testament, e.g. kingship, priests and the high-priest, prophets, succession of Patriarchs; Christ as the great High Priest; Christ, the apostles, and the disciples; Peter and the Power of the Keys; Church hierarchy within the Epistles---deacon, presbyter, bishop.

3. Historical- The Early Church and the Fathers of the Church- Petrine and apostolic succession; the Catholicity of the Church that appears in the writings of all the Church Fathers; the ecclesiastical similarity of heretical institutions that separated from the Church very early (Arianism, Nestorianism); supernatural preservation of the Church through the ages

And much besides.
Thanks, QuisUtDeus and LongFellow.  I attended at the Catholic Church when I lived in West Virginia because there was no Anglican Church in the county.  And the young priest who was about the age of my second daughter used to drive me to the hospital when I became ill with tumors.  He took me there for tests, and he was learning English.  I was an English teacher, so I helped him with his English (edited his homilies for spelling and word usage); and we became very friendly.  And then he was transferred to Rome and I moved away.  And I miss his good counsel.  [He's now serving back in Indonesia, his home, as head of Seminary.]  I still miss Father Alex.

So, I thought maybe, since my own Church isn't doing the job anymore, I'd see about finding some new friends.  Thanks for your hospitality.

I notice in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was very concerned with behavior; and I like that.  Our society's behavior is going down the tubes rapidly.

I'm talkative because I've got my first cup of coffee, going through the new stack of emails, so I feel I can chat with you a little.

: )  Emily
(04-04-2010, 12:08 PM)No3456 Wrote: I notice in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was very concerned with behavior; and I like that.  Our society's behavior is going down the tubes rapidly.

Well, left to our own devices, we act like idiots.  God felt compelled to give us the 10 Commandments because He knew we would, and good parents set boundaries for their children because children are ignorant.  Obviously, we're ignorant compared to God so...  Also with Original Sin we have a tendency to be naughty.

When people stop listening to the rules of behavior - which is really what  God's rules are about - how we act towards Him and towards others - well, we get what we see today.

Quote:I'm talkative because I've got my first cup of coffee, going through the new stack of emails, so I feel I can chat with you a little.

Ha!  That's what I do first thing every morning - grab coffee, a cigarette, and read email (and the forum).  The breakfast of champions!
Quis, I made the presumptive decision (because I was reared by Jewish Zionists) to carve out my own copy of the Ten Commandments and
their associated "Mitzvot" from a Jewish internet site.  They claimed there are 613 principles.  So, I went to work editing, categorizing and
organizing the body of do's and don'ts.

When I was finished I was surprised to discover what I had collected was an excellent version of what we would ordinarily call "Common"
or "Natural" Law in the Anglo-Saxon idiom, a bottom-up set of behavioral principles to apply to an entire society, top to bottom, in order to
establish Peace.

Common Law contrasts against Roman Law in that the latter serves status quo elites for the purpose of garnering resources for imperialistic and
military expansion into new territories.

It was surprising to me that God would formulate a bottom-up strategy and direct His Kingdom at the work of expanding that form of keeping
the Peace, as against the peoples roundabout who were served by hierarchical elites determined, top-down, to over-control.

So, apparently the opposition between bottom-up "governance by consent" (EX 19:8) versus TOP-DOWN Elite dictation is still going
on; and we know that the Emerald Treaty that halted Lyrian wars was dealing with this very same set of issues: Dominance versus Self-

I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done to clarify how Holy Law fits into and facilitates the keeping of the Peace, which if you read it,
it does just that.


Well, your result doesn't surprise me.  The Church teaches that Natural Law is graven on our hearts by God and we all know it, in the form of conscience, from birth.

But there are other laws such as Divine Law, which go to worship of God that are not graven on our hearts but given by revelation, Scripture, etc.  Turning the other cheek is not Natural Law - it is instinctual - and a matter of survival - to lash out when attacked.  These kinds of laws we only found out from Christ.

So, it seems to me that one needs all kinds of laws, but they should be rooted in the two greatest:  Love God, and love your neighbor.

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