The flow of the Liturgy
#1
    I have observed that in many NO masses especially among prominent liturgies
there is a strong tendency for ministers to interject long monologues welcoming
various prelates to said mass, or in more low key liturgies to make the announcements of the day
day during the introductory aka penitential rites these often last more than the introductory rites themselves.
I am sure it is well intentioned but it takes the attention in some degree away from God and to those assembled
, and it is usually quite banal with every bishop attending being named and their see in many cases one by one.
It interupts what I call the "flow" of the Liturgy.

    It's like the work of the people(Liturgy) is being paused so prelates can say
hello to each other. It is very annoying and disconcerting, its like some prelates refuse to be for lack of a better word
absorbed into the liturgy being persona Christi. This problem of interupting the flow of the Liturgy seems to be integral
to the Novus Ordo although it can be minimised by the celebrant to some extent, the rubrics have various places where the ministers are encouraged to make comments, and the transition from various parts of the mass to another is abrupt compared to the tridentine mass, especially so concerning the Liturgy of the Word(Mass of the Catechumans) and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The prayers of preparation in the Tridentine mass are much fuller even for example when the priest prepares to say the Gospel or when he prepares to say the Canon.

    There is little time in the Novus Ordo to "catch your breath" so to speak to slow down and contemplate what you have heard or read or seen, and when you do have the opportunity it seems to me to be a strained silence as if the congregation is holding its breath till the priest decides its time to start the next prayer. In the the Tridentine Mass there is in contrast a filled silence, as there is almost always some prayer being said which you can choose to follow or not, the Tridentine Mass is actually much more flexible for the congregation than the Novus Ordo where everyone is more or less forced to participate in the same way.  This is perhaps one of the biggest problems of the Novus Ordo, which reflects the way it was assembled artificially, the Tridentine Mass "flows" very well because it is the product of hundreds of years of liturgical experience and evolution. That is not to say the Tridentine mass should be fossilzed in fact it so great because the liturgy did change but by and large by small incremental organic steps.

    The one area today however where the Tridentine Mass doesn't flow very well is the repition of the readings in the vernacular, its a liturgical redundancy but a almost necessary one since the readings are in the vast majority of the times officially read in Latin, the obvious solution would be to read them once in the vernacular(as SP allows) or once in Latin but I think the people should be able to hear and understand the Gospel in the vernacular.

Thoughts?
Reply
#2
(04-11-2010, 11:14 PM)sheep101 Wrote: I have observed that in many NO masses especially among prominent liturgies
there is a strong tendency for ministers to interject long monologues welcoming
various prelates to said mass, or in more low key liturgies to make the announcements of the day
day during the introductory aka penitential rites these often last more than the introductory rites themselves.
I am sure it is well intentioned but it takes the attention in some degree away from God and to those assembled
, and it is usually quite banal with every bishop attending being named and their see in many cases one by one.
It interupts what I call the "flow" of the Liturgy. It's like the work of the people(Liturgy) is being paused so prelates can say
hello to each other. It is very annoying and disconcerting, its like some prelates refuse to be for lack of a better word
absorbed into the liturgy being persona Christi. This problem of interupting the flow of the Liturgy seems to be integral
to the Novus Ordo although it can be minimised by the celebrant to some extent, the rubrics have various places where the ministers are encouraged to make comments, and the transition from various parts of the mass to another is abrupt compared to the tridentine mass, especially so concerning the Liturgy of the Word(Mass of the Catechumans) and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The prayers of preparation in the Tridentine mass are much fuller even for example when the priest prepares to say the Gospel or when he prepares to say the Canon.
There is little time in the Novus Ordo to "catch your breath" so to speak to slow down and contemplate what you have heard or read or seen, and when you do have the opportunity it seems to me to be a strained silence as if the congregation is holding its breath till the priest decides its time to start the next prayer. In the the Tridentine Mass there is in contrast a filled silence, as there is almost always some prayer being said which you can choose to follow or not, the Tridentine Mass is actually much more flexible for the congregation than the Novus Ordo where everyone is more or less forced to participate in the same way.  This is perhaps one of the biggest problems of the Novus Ordo, which reflects the way it was assembled artificially, the Tridentine Mass "flows" very well because it is the product of hundreds of years of liturgical experience and evolution. That is not to say the Tridentine mass should be fossilzed in fact it so great because the liturgy did change but by and large by small incremental organic steps. The one area today however where the Tridentine Mass doesn't flow very well is the repition of the readings in the vernacular, its a liturgical redundancy but a almost necessary one since the readings are in the vast majority of the times officially read in Latin, the obvious solution would be to read them once in the vernacular(as SP allows) or once in Latin but I think the people should be able to hear and understand the Gospel in the vernacular.

Thoughts?

My thought is that you need to learn how to break up your sentences into paragraphs.
Reply
#3
I absolutely agree with the gist of your post. At the local diocesan Tridentine Mass here, the parish continues to have someone give announcements before Mass (as with the other Novus Ordo Masses there), and while this isn't "in the liturgy", it's still disruptive. I believe there should be either a period of silence, or an organ prelude, and then the bell rings and the liturgy begins. (Or, even better, if it immediately follows Lauds/Vespers, but that's another story.) Not someone talking about the parish bake sale, followed by a reminder to turn off my cell phone.

I do understand the need for announcements, but churches usually choose the worst places to give them. My favourite "method", which is done at my Anglican use parish, is that during the "Amen" of the Credo, the pastor makes his way to the lectern and gives the announcements in a formal style and ends with "let us continue our worship this morning (evening) with our intercessions". I understand that this was a common pre-Vatican II practice to have announcements made in between the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful, but I can't verify that. The priest who celebrates the Tridentine Mass here gives announcements immediately before the homily. I think this is less ideal, but, it's better than at the beginning of Mass.


As for how some priests like to interrupt the liturgy with meet-and-greet's, or commentary..... yes, it's annoying. As I was watching Pope Benedict's visit to the United States in '08, I noticed that at pretty much every Mass, a cardinal thought it necessary to pause after the first sign of the cross to make some opening statement, as if we didn't know that the guy in the big chair with the tall hat was the Pope.

Quote:the Tridentine Mass is actually much more flexible for the congregation than the Novus Ordo where everyone is more or less forced to participate in the same way.

This is true. I'm not sure if it's better or worse, though. Just different. Certainly, I think that contrary to the run-of-the-mill trad's imagination, the Tridentine Mass is much more freeform from the layman's point of view. There are no rubrics for the laity; nothing specifically binds them to sit, stand, kneel or bow at any particular time, nor make any sort of verbal response. These are all done according to personal preference. The Novus Ordo Missal actually attempts to impose more order on the faithful in the pews by giving them a set of rubrics to follow on posture, verbal response and other things.

Quote:The one area today however where the Tridentine Mass doesn't flow very well is the repition of the readings in the vernacular, its a liturgical redundancy but a almost necessary one since the readings are in the vast majority of the times officially read in Latin, the obvious solution would be to read them once in the vernacular(as SP allows) or once in Latin but I think the people should be able to hear and understand the Gospel in the vernacular.

Re-reading the Scriptures in the vernacular is annoying. If the laity are too dumb, sing them liturgically in the vernacular as Summorum Pontificum allows. The Gregorian reciting tones are easily adapted to English. If they're smart, print translations in bulletins that are handed out at the door, and/or have a stand that sells hand Missals in the church gift shop or something.
Reply
#4
I don't know.  I have seen announcements done before Mass, before the sermon, and before the final blessing.  I think the announcements before Mass are by far the least disruptive.  I mean...it's before Mass.  If you must have spoken announcements, better to do it without disrupting the flow the Mass, I say.
Reply
#5
My $0.02

I like announcements at the beginning of the Homily.  As far as the reading in English, it isn't bad if it is also done right before the Homily on a Sunday Mass.  During weekday low Masses, I'm for skipping the reading in English altogether.

Growing up in the NO, the priests also did the announcements right before the Homily.  Within the time of the liturgy, it just seems to be the appropriate time so as to not interfere with anything else.
Reply
#6
Well my Priest who's traditional says the announcements right before the homily I kinda think thats the way to go myself.
Reply
#7
(04-12-2010, 06:39 PM)Baskerville Wrote: Well my Priest who's traditional says the announcements right before the homily I kinda think thats the way to go myself.

All the SSPX priests I've known have done it that way.
Reply
#8
(04-12-2010, 06:45 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(04-12-2010, 06:39 PM)Baskerville Wrote: Well my Priest who's traditional says the announcements right before the homily I kinda think thats the way to go myself.

All the SSPX priests I've known have done it that way.

I've never had a priest do anything other than that.  The only time I've had a priest address the congregation, other than right before the homily, is if it is a special Mass and he just wanted to either warn non-Catholics about taking Communion or give the congregation a "heads-up" about a procession or something...
Reply
#9
(04-11-2010, 11:14 PM)sheep101 Wrote:  
     The one area today however where the Tridentine Mass doesn't flow very well is the repition of the readings in the vernacular, its a liturgical redundancy but a almost necessary one since the readings are in the vast majority of the times officially read in Latin, the obvious solution would be to read them once in the vernacular(as SP allows) or once in Latin but I think the people should be able to hear and understand the Gospel in the vernacular.

Thoughts?

In Hungary the traditional way was that only the Gospel was read in vernacular, after he read it in Latin. This only on Sundays, in the weekday masses there was no vernacular reading at all, most people had their missals.

During the fifties, when the dialog masses were introduced a lector read the Lesson on the same time when the priest read it in Latin, and the priest still read twice the Gospel first in Latin than in vernacular. This became the practice on weekday masses too, if there was lector available. The lector otherwise read the propers and lead the people for the Kyrie, Gloria etc

After 1965 many priests read either the Lesson and the Gospel only in vernacular, at the altar on the proper side but facing the people, from the bilingual missal approved in the 1920's. I do not see anything objectionable in this practice (it was allowed) supposed that the text is approved translation. The teaching part of the Mass (Mass of Catechumens) is for the people to understand.

As for the announcements in my mind the proper time is after reading the Gospel, before the sermon, but anything above 5 short sentences (except for extra circumstances once of twice a year) is from the evil and serves his purposes: the vanity.
Reply
#10
(04-12-2010, 06:52 PM)amasimp Wrote:
(04-12-2010, 06:45 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(04-12-2010, 06:39 PM)Baskerville Wrote: Well my Priest who's traditional says the announcements right before the homily I kinda think thats the way to go myself.

All the SSPX priests I've known have done it that way.

I've never had a priest do anything other than that.  The only time I've had a priest address the congregation, other than right before the homily, is if it is a special Mass and he just wanted to either warn non-Catholics about taking Communion or give the congregation a "heads-up" about a procession or something...

Yep.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)