rosary info
#31
katie Wrote:Is there somewhere in church tradition that states to the effect, that there is no merit or very little,  in praying the rosary with just the words? I have recently run into someone who believes he can pray the rosary without the meditation or even without the proper attention and he still considers it most beneficial.

I don't know about the merit of any given prayer, you'll have to take that up with God. However, your friend would be wise to recall, "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words" (Mt 6:7).
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#32
(05-30-2010, 10:03 AM)Credo Wrote:
katie Wrote:Is there somewhere in church tradition that states to the effect, that there is no merit or very little,  in praying the rosary with just the words? I have recently run into someone who believes he can pray the rosary without the meditation or even without the proper attention and he still considers it most beneficial.

I don't know about the merit of any given prayer, you'll have to take that up with God. However, your friend would be wise to recall, "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words" (Mt 6:7).

Well, let's be careful about going too far along in that vein.  Alternate translations of this verse use the words "vain repetition".  Protestants LOVE this and it's one of the favorite sticks used to beat Catholics with.  But, they are focused on the wrong word.....Jesus urges us to avoid vain repetitions, not vain repetitions.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/vain_an...rayer.html
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#33
Who is going too far? The verse I cited fits quite nicely. katie's friend believes that simply reciting a set number of prayers without any personal effort at prayer is "most beneficial."
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#34
Re: vain repetitions

KJV Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Douay Rheims :  Matt 6:7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.

The Greek is battalogeo (used here as unique word) from Battos (proverbial stammerer) and logos, so the connection with repetitions is misunderstanding. Jesus urges the conscientious clear prayer, for the petitions. This passage does not denies the repetitions for other kind of prayers, like the Rosary, Office etc

Here is the context from the DR:

Matt 6:6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. 7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. 8 Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him. 9 Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
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#35
it's funny how protestants rail against 'vain repetitions' since almost all of them use the Lord's Prayer (Pater Noster) frequently and mainstream protestants say the Apostle's Creed at every service.  when i was growing up in a mainstream protestant family (and studying the Catholic Faith in secret) it always amused me to go to church and hear everyone saying the Creed and the Lord's Prayer mechanically.  i doubt many gave real thought to what they were saying, they were just on automatic pilot.  of course there are Catholics who do the same at Mass, but protestants always condemn the Rosary as 'vain repetition.'  the irony is quite rich if you've been a protestant.  

every Sunday we also sang 'Praise God from Whom all blessings flow, Praise Him all creatures here below, Praise Him above, ye Heavenly host, Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost," a standard mainstream protestant doxology.  this was sung rather mechanically and, again, i doubt many gave real thought to the words.  

mainstream protestants also believe in the Trinity and will tell you Jesus is God but argue that Mary is not the Mother of God, only the mother of Jesus, never seeing the inherent contradiction.

one of my early questions was 'if we say we believe in the Holy Catholic Church, then why aren't we Catholic?'  naturally, i was told that 'catholic' means 'universal' and we did belong to the 'universal Christian church,' from which i subsequently learned that all Catholics were automatically excluded!  

Cogito, ergo sum Catholica.  




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#36
This subject is near and dear to my heart. I heard from a priest who was at the council that the reason for the changes in the Mass was because many priests didn't wanted the people saying the rosary at mass, in their estimation it was a distraction. Think on this for awhile it could explain all of the busy actions at the New Mass. In the conversation I mentioned all of the old ladies who wore black for mourning and attended all of the low masses before the mass for us kids to start the school day. Those women came early and stayed for at least two low masses, sitting in the first pews, lighting candles, and praying their rosaries. These were the women that were bothering some priests, these were the ignorant immigrant women that lost husbands, sons, brothers, uncles, in WWII, and in their sorrow stood at the foot of the Cross everyday with the Mother of Jesus and the other Marys. These women knew the grief a Mother and women feel when their loved ones are killed.

Now the rosary has been forgotten and been diminished. It is even made more  to difficult for the people to pray it. You must meditate ! Even though most Catholics never get past praying by rote. If I didn't know better it would appear there was an assault on the BMV and the rosary from within. The Fatima prayer has been skipped and some prelates say S. Lucy made it up in her childish fervor. Others tell how much more hip and cool it is to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Could it be exactly as Our Lady said and we have abandoned the BMV's rosary, the good and the bad ? Is God getting angrier and about to pour out his wrath ? You bet your scapular He is !!!
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#37
(05-30-2010, 04:17 PM)timoose Wrote: This subject is near and dear to my heart. I heard from a priest who was at the council that the reason for the changes in the Mass was because many priests didn't wanted the people saying the rosary at mass, in their estimation it was a distraction. Think on this for awhile it could explain all of the busy actions at the New Mass. In the conversation I mentioned all of the old ladies who wore black for mourning and attended all of the low masses before the mass for us kids to start the school day. Those women came early and stayed for at least two low masses, sitting in the first pews, lighting candles, and praying their rosaries. These were the women that were bothering some priests, these were the ignorant immigrant women that lost husbands, sons, brothers, uncles, in WWII, and in their sorrow stood at the foot of the Cross everyday with the Mother of Jesus and the other Marys. These women knew the grief a Mother and women feel when their loved ones are killed.

i can believe that a lot of priests didn't want the old ladies there praying.  at that time in history, more than now, men considered women to be inferior to them in all ways, and since priests are supposedly superior to other men, at least some of them would really look down on women, probably even more so because they know the parish would fall apart if the women weren't doing volunteer work and making their families come to Mass.

so to see these 'inferior' creatures who were so evidently pious would be a serious threat to them as men and as priests, who perhaps knew they didn't have as much faith as those simple, uneducated old ladies, or had to wonder if their faith was as deep.

i think a fair number of priests today don't like women, and i'm not talking about their sexual orientation. a lot of men who have sex with women all the time, playboy types, don't really like women, don't relate to them as fellow human beings.

something i read at wdtprs the other day made me think 'whoa, fr. z has a bit of a problem with women.'  otherwise i might not have had these thoughts today.

(05-30-2010, 04:17 PM)timoose Wrote: Now the rosary has been forgotten and been diminished. It is even made more  to difficult for the people to pray it. You must meditate ! Even though most Catholics never get past praying by rote. If I didn't know better it would appear there was an assault on the BMV and the rosary from within. The Fatima prayer has been skipped and some prelates say S. Lucy made it up in her childish fervor. Others tell how much more hip and cool it is to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Could it be exactly as Our Lady said and we have abandoned the BMV's rosary, the good and the bad ? Is God getting angrier and about to pour out his wrath ? You bet your scapular He is !!!

you know, tim, i don't believe more than 1% of all people, if that many, can really meditate while saying the Rosary.  i use mental images of favorite paintings of the various mysteries and think a bit about the mystery before and/or after saying the decade, and try to get through the prayers without getting distracted.  sometimes i manage to do that, more often i get distracted and have to get back on track. 

God knows we're imperfect and i think He gives us credit as long as we're trying.  not all the saints had ecstasies so we shouldn't expect to have them.  the important thing is to pray the Rosary every day, focusing on the Mysteries the best you can. 

i'm going to join the Rosary Confraternity, think it will be beneficial to me.  anybody else belong?  i think i learned about it at the Age of Mary site you linked to, tim, so thanks again.

http://www.rosary-center.org/index.htm

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#38
I thought that when I pray the Rosary I meditate, but from what I'm reading here, it seems that in order to meditate you must have some sort of ecstasy or out of body experience?? I thought that just meditating on the mysteries meant that your mind and heart was thinking about the mystery and/or trying to put yourself near and dear to Jesus?? What exactly constitutes a meditation???

When I pray the Rosary my mind wanders as well, but sometimes I can get my mind to deeply reflect on the mysteries, while thinking of nothing else... However, It is rare when I actually feel so much at peace.
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#39
I try to meditate while praying my Rosary but usually my wondering mind usually keeps me from staying focused on the Mysteries for one Ave, never mind 10 Ave's. I try my best and I guess that's all I can do.

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#40
i.p.i. Wrote:i can believe that a lot of priests didn't want the old ladies there praying.  at that time in history, more than now, men considered women to be inferior to them in all ways, and since priests are supposedly superior to other men, at least some of them would really look down on women, probably even more so because they know the parish would fall apart if the women weren't doing volunteer work and making their families come to Mass.

so to see these 'inferior' creatures who were so evidently pious would be a serious threat to them as men and as priests, who perhaps knew they didn't have as much faith as those simple, uneducated old ladies, or had to wonder if their faith was as deep.

i think a fair number of priests today don't like women, and i'm not talking about their sexual orientation. a lot of men who have sex with women all the time, playboy types, don't really like women, don't relate to them as fellow human beings.

something i read at wdtprs the other day made me think 'whoa, fr. z has a bit of a problem with women.'  otherwise i might not have had these thoughts today.

.... or these same priests have a better grasp of liturgical theology than average. Hold the psychoanalysis. Any dolt with five minutes of catechism understands people shouldn't be doing private devotional exercises at Mass or during the Office.
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