Germany "Convicts" Bishop Williamson
#51
Gerard,

First, the Pope at the time severely condemned the sack of Constantinople.  Because men who claimed to be Crusaders raped women and looted churches.  I accept everything that Crocker said.  BUT, the pseudo-Crusaders genuinely did commit objective atrocities against the people ALSO, in addition to what Crocker rightly points out.    The Pope at the time, Pope Innocent III, lamented this.  If you want to take it up with Innocent III, be my guest. 

About invidiousness to victims.  This will be my last comment on this topic with you.  IF someone were to say, "Actually Stalin only killed 300,000 Ukrainians, most of us would say it was a whitewash, an attempted rehabilitation of Stalin, and an invidious assault on the memory of Stalin's 6,000,000 Ukrainian victims.  Well, like it or not, that's how most people, who accept the standard account of the Holocaust *AND NOT OUT OF MALICE OR ANTI-CHRISTIAN BIAS* regard the attempt to lower the numbers -- as an attempt to downplay the reality.  Because they accept the standard account as accurate.  So when you're dealing with Naziism and the scale of its horrors, it is *understandable* that people's passions will get riled up.  That alone doesn't justify outlawing the debate, but it does explain the opprobrium.  Just as those who say the Moon landing was fake are being invidious to the men who actually landed on the Moon.  And those who deny British complicity in the Potato Famine are invidious to the Irish victims.  And those who say O.J. is innocent are being invidious to his victims.  Given these people's premises, their actions follow.  You say it's the other way around.  I think it's a bit more complicated than that. 
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#52
(04-16-2010, 08:39 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: OK, let's move away from an actual numbers debate which isn't allowed here.  We can stick with the topic of Bp.W and such without doing that debate.

IMO, this is about repercussions for unpopular speech, regardless if +W's numbers are accurate or not.  I mean, people say clearly and objectively wrong things all the time, they don't get fined and go to jail for it.

So, let's veer back to the topic, please.
Yes, fined and jailed for one's opinions..........

Next thing you know they'll be nailing them to crosses.

And this is why my family went over and fought and died fighting Nazi'sover there so they could extradite, lock-up, imprison and fine a Catholic Bishop for giving an interview in another country about the correct statistics about the number of deaths about a certain group of people.

How do you like your freedom now all you patriotards on here?
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#53
"How do you like your freedom now all you patriotards on here?"

You seem to confuse categories.  Have people who support the war in Afghanistan or accept the standard account of 9-11 (or whatever criteria define "patriotardism" for you) been saying that Germany and the EU represent freedom?  Rather seems to me not.  I for one, someone you probably call a patriotard, do not want laws like the German one passed in this country.  I am to an extent (the extent I'm not sure of) playing devil's advocate. 
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#54
If anything, I think a "patriotard" would beat his breast about how much better it is to live in America than in the despotic EU. 
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#55
The problem I have with horrendously indiscreet public displays of 'eccentric' opinions, is the trouble that they can bring, over the long term.  If one person gets up there and lets it all hang out, then you can get a host of little tiddlers down in the wake of the main mast, all screeching the same thing.  We have had this sort of thing occur in our community - 'amusing eccentricity' in the beginning but at the end it turned homicidal and wound up with the bombing of a hotel/pub.
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#56
(04-17-2010, 02:25 AM)Elisheba Wrote: The problem I have with horrendously indiscreet public displays of 'eccentric' opinions, is the trouble that they can bring, over the long term.  If one person gets up there and lets it all hang out, then you can get a host of little tiddlers down in the wake of the main mast, all screeching the same thing.  We have had this sort of thing occur in our community - 'amusing eccentricity' in the beginning but at the end it turned homicidal and wound up with the bombing of a hotel/pub.

That's ridiculous. The view that 9/11 was an inside job is not eccentric. It's a mainstream opinion, whether it's true or not. Questioning certain aspects of the Holocaust would probably be accepted by the  mainstream as well, if people weren't threatened with jail or worse.
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#57
(04-16-2010, 11:13 PM)Bonifacius Wrote: "How do you like your freedom now all you patriotards on here?"

You seem to confuse categories.  Have people who support the war in Afghanistan or accept the standard account of 9-11 (or whatever criteria define "patriotardism" for you) been saying that Germany and the EU represent freedom?  Rather seems to me not.  I for one, someone you probably call a patriotard, do not want laws like the German one passed in this country.  I am to an extent (the extent I'm not sure of) playing devil's advocate. 
Well guess what, these same laws are on their way here.

Just ask our friends north of the border.

I guess you haven't noticed the how much the Merkel gov't has cozied up with the U.S. and the attempt to "spread democracy" and fight for freedom in other places while they censor free (hate) hate speech within their own borders. Germany has become a pathetic specimen of what it once was and thouroughly deballed through the constant psychological beat-down of the guilt-driven holoco$t racket. This propagandizing industry is relentless in their attempt to suck every last euro and every drop of manhood down to the last German male and Merkel and her ilk are all the more willing collaborators in this never ending scam.


And this same prevailing sentiment is already festering here and the "patriotards" are too stupid cheerleading about running around in the hills and caves in Afghanistan while the  commie thought police here are slowly enacting legislation here to rob our freedom of speech and allow our porous borders to be penetrated at will by a much more dangerous nemesis than "Islamo-facists" in the ME and Southwestern Asia.
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#58
(04-17-2010, 02:00 AM)Bonifacius Wrote: If anything, I think a "patriotard" would beat his breast about how much better it is to live in America than in the despotic EU. 
Uhh, not really. It all depends on where you're talking about.

Personally, I think I would want to probably want to live in downtown Brussels than downtown Detroit.
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#59
Strange thread. As for me I'm not an amarican patriot cuz I'm not amarican. But since I've lived on 3 continents I guess its me experience that when I lived in amarica its really not half bad. Really compared to the rest o the world its not bad. I do support the war in a stan if that makes me an amarican imperalist then oh well. 911 was pulled of by mohams not aleans or wee mosad jews in jersey. And the holpohoax well due to the rules here I can't get much into that.
Anyhoo
Back to the thread
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#60
(04-17-2010, 05:57 AM)stvincentferrer Wrote:
(04-17-2010, 02:25 AM)Elisheba Wrote: The problem I have with horrendously indiscreet public displays of 'eccentric' opinions, is the trouble that they can bring, over the long term.  If one person gets up there and lets it all hang out, then you can get a host of little tiddlers down in the wake of the main mast, all screeching the same thing.  We have had this sort of thing occur in our community - 'amusing eccentricity' in the beginning but at the end it turned homicidal and wound up with the bombing of a hotel/pub.

That's ridiculous. The view that 9/11 was an inside job is not eccentric. It's a mainstream opinion, whether it's true or not. Questioning certain aspects of the Holocaust would probably be accepted by the  mainstream as well, if people weren't threatened with jail or worse.

Quite right.  The official 9/11 and Holocaust accounts are deeply flawed.  Anyone looking at those official accounts with an open mind can't reasonably conclude otherwise. 

What's eccentric is denying the Resurrection of Christ.  Somehow nobody worries about those "amusing eccentrics" turning homicidal and bombing hotels and pubs.  Ironically enough, that's precisely what many of them are doing--through their Zionist and U.S. imperial proxies.       
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