Germany "Convicts" Bishop Williamson
#61
Being flawed does mean an even more flawed take is the correct one.
But anyhoooo. Talk about a fallacy
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#62
(04-17-2010, 09:23 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: Being flawed does mean an even more flawed take is the correct one.
But anyhoooo. Talk about a fallacy

I assume you mean "does not mean an even more flawed take is the correct one."  If so, I don't know whose flawed take or fallacy you're referring to.  Those of us who take issue with the "official" deeply flawed account aren't necessarily offering our own.  I know I haven't. 

It's the apologists for the American police state and empire who act as if the 9/11 and Holocaust accounts are settled.  The other side may be offering alternative explanations, however flawed, but at least they're not acting as if either account of those events--or any account, really--is settled. 

You're creating another strawman, DK.  Probably to deflect attention from the crimes of the American Imperium, which is as apt to forge an alliance with Mohammedan terrorists as with anyone else, e.g., Josef Stalin, Saddam Hussein, right-wing South American dictatorships, the Shah of Iran, the Mafia, and so on, and so forth. 
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#63
You sound like a bad fantasy writer anam chara
LoL
Oh pls. What nation has not acted the way you condemn yours?
Your so silly go out and see the world. Frankly all u do bitch.
Tiring really
Sip sip
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#64
I think anyone that looks to any government, especially a non-Catholic one, for truth and such is a fool.

Governments govern - for non-Catholic or at least non-God-Fearing  that means half the time they are feeding us bullshit and blowing smoke up our asses because the alternative to that while still getting us to do what they say is to be like Stalin or Hitler and kill everyone.

Personally, I'd rather hear the lies and ignore them.  It's hard to ignore a rifle butt in the face.

Here's a story my Sicilian grandmother used to tell....

Napoleon used to dress up as a corporal and walk among his troops to find out what they were thinking, etc.  One day he was dressed like this and came to an Italian farmer.  He was curious what the peasants thought, so he went up to the farmer and said, "So, what do you think of our Napoleon?  He does great things, conquers, builds roads, rules magnanimously, and so on.  What do you think of him?  Tell me, you won't get in trouble.  I give you my word."

The farmer looked at him, thought for a second, and said, "Well, if you want the honest truth, it is this:  it doesn't matter much to me who is king, I still have to plow the field and pay taxes."

So, at the end of the day governments will lie and we have no real control over anything but ourselves.  We go to Mass, go to work, try to survive and the power brokers and Masons and international bankers will do their thing.  Obviously, we shouldn't take it lying down, on the other hand, it shouldn't eclipse going to Mass and feeding the family which are the more immediate concerns.

In this sense, I think it is where +W has made an error in choices.  While there is an importance in every truth being told, there is also the question of the goals, etc.

+W is a great bishop, a great confessor, etc. and all that is now rotting (forgive the term) away in London because of sticking points on historical facts that don't serve the immediate needs of the Church.  He can rally against Napoleon, but he shouldn't do it at the expense of tending his flock and feeding his family - we the Catholic laity.

If it comes to Martydom for us, I would pray to be martyred next to +W even though I don't think I am worthy enough to die next to him, but I want to be martyred for the Faith, not historical facts.  I'm not going to die on that hill.  I think he is foolish to die on that hill as well.  It is a waste of what he can contribute.

In the final analysis, the fix to the historical distortion of facts is conversion to the Catholic worldview because by definition the Church demands the truth.  So, if +W wants the truth and people to believe in it, he can accomplish that indirectly by making them better Catholics, IMO.

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#65
I'm amazed that people still believe the official 9/11 story  ::)
The evidence is over-whelming imo.
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#66
Quote:Posted by QuisUtDeus
+W is a great bishop, a great confessor, etc. and all that is now rotting (forgive the term) away in London ...
Why do you think that, Quis? The only thing that really changed over the past year or so was His Lordship's seminary position and his ability to travel freely between countries. Now that the court case is over there is absolutely nothing to stop him from visiting other countries (with the probable exception of one or two like Germany that would deny him entry) except for Bishop Fellay.

Over the past year His Lordship has administered confirmations, celebrated public Masses, heard confessions, preached, given various conferences, given an Ignatian retreat and so on. How does that constitute "rotting away in London"?
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#67
(04-17-2010, 08:34 PM)PilgrimageofGrace Wrote:
Quote:Posted by QuisUtDeus
+W is a great bishop, a great confessor, etc. and all that is now rotting (forgive the term) away in London ...
Why do you think that, Quis? The only thing that really changed over the past year or so was His Lordship's seminary position and his ability to travel freely between countries. Now that the court case is over there is absolutely nothing to stop him from visiting other countries (with the probable exception of one or two like Germany that would deny him entry) except for Bishop Fellay.

Over the past year His Lordship has administered confirmations, celebrated public Masses, heard confessions, preached, given various conferences, given an Ignatian retreat and so on. How does that constitute "rotting away in London"?

I should have chosen my words more carefully.  You are right, that is inaccurate.

I will go with "muzzled in London" or perhaps "restricted in London".  It doesn't matter if the only thing stopping him is +F.  The fact is that he is stopped by a superior.  And even if he goes to other places, there will still be restrictions on him, I am sure.
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#68
"I think anyone that looks to any government, especially a non-Catholic one, for truth and such is a fool."

I think that about sums it up, having a Sicilian nonna myself I can relate to that story about the farmer and Napoleon (another one of my ethnic heritage). Gov'ts lie, they always have and always will, the only thing that really matters in this world is your blood and where your eternal soul will reside in the next.

The farmer was absolutely right, he had to feed his family and render to Caesar no matter which king sat on the throne. His day to day toil wasn't going to change regardless.

I was always taught God,family, country and "country" didn't never necessarily refer to "gov't".

As for Williamson actions being a burden to the Church, I think the jury is out on that (No pun intended) because this thing could go either way. Remember, the Church was built on persecution and martyrdom, the more they try and stamp out the truth, the more it spreads. And prosecuting a Catholic bishop over the holocaust comments, might be just blow up in their face in the end and give Williamson more exposure than he's ever had and raise even more questions than ever about the so-called "shoah". You would think after two thousand years the Judaics would learn by now this kind of approach doesn't work in condemning the Church or it's clergy. But they just don't learn or are too proud to back off, these "stiff-necked" people.


What they would use for evil, God will use for good.
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#69
(04-17-2010, 08:51 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(04-17-2010, 08:34 PM)PilgrimageofGrace Wrote:
Quote:Posted by QuisUtDeus
+W is a great bishop, a great confessor, etc. and all that is now rotting (forgive the term) away in London ...
Why do you think that, Quis? The only thing that really changed over the past year or so was His Lordship's seminary position and his ability to travel freely between countries. Now that the court case is over there is absolutely nothing to stop him from visiting other countries (with the probable exception of one or two like Germany that would deny him entry) except for Bishop Fellay.

Over the past year His Lordship has administered confirmations, celebrated public Masses, heard confessions, preached, given various conferences, given an Ignatian retreat and so on. How does that constitute "rotting away in London"?

I should have chosen my words more carefully.  You are right, that is inaccurate.

I will go with "muzzled in London" or perhaps "restricted in London".  It doesn't matter if the only thing stopping him is +F.  The fact is that he is stopped by a superior.  And even if he goes to other places, there will still be restrictions on him, I am sure.

And that's where we can say that the interview that started all of this was grossly imprudent.

As Bishop Fellay said, the problem is that Bishop Williamson is "radioactive" -- or at the least will always be viewed as such and that is unjust.

If Msgr. Williamson is allowed to make circuits and give confirmation and give Orders again, then the cloud of "Holocaust Denier" will always follow him and will be transfered to others. All of the good sermons, good conferences, good confessions and assistance that he could provide to the SSPX and the faithful are now tainted, and all over debate on an historical issue, not a doctrinal. Bishop Fellay also has his hands tied as well, because he has damn good priest and bishop in Msgr. Williamson which he may never be able to use ever again.

Bishop Williamson, himself, recognized the imprudence of his choice, probably because he realized exactly this.

That said, regarding certain issues Bishop Williamson has addressed on the historical level:

It is, frankly, asinine that things like 9/11 and the racial persecutions during WWII (News Flash: it was more than just Jews), are held by some to be fixed certain facts. It's actually a typically American thing (as much as I love my country) to think we are always on the winning/good side and always right, yet it was we who leveled two of the Catholic centers of Japan, destroyed Monte Casino and committed plenty of other atrocities. The events of history are fixed, but our knowledge of them evolves and we get things right and wrong, we have some who obfuscate and some who clarify. A good historian should not be afraid to question the accuracy of number on anything, but he should also be prepared to do good research and try his best to remove any bias if he is to try to find the truth. Why would good Catholics accept everything parroted by modern historians, when those same modern historians are the first to make the "Crusades" and "Inquisition" into paddles with which to flagellate the Church. The "official" stories may be mostly true, but where holes exist, a good historian will point out the problems (even if he has nothing to propose in its place).

Anyone who looks to a non-Catholic, secular government for truth is a fool. Anyone who thinks they know the whole truth about any historical event (outside Doctrine) is a liar and a fool.
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#70
(04-17-2010, 09:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: And that's where we can say that the interview that started all of this was grossly imprudent.

Despite the weakness on the part of the leadership of the SSPX, it may actually have  been opportune.  It forced the enemies of the Church that are in the Jewish community  to fire their big gun right away.  Now, they are going to have to work really hard and could easily overplay their hand.  I think the general populace is tiring of the relentless claim of victimhood.  Unfortunately, until the Jewish community starts policing the actions of the unscrupulous within their community, who cloak themselves with the innocent majority of Jews, the Jewish community is going to ultimately evoke group resentment and we get genuine trouble, afterwhich the Jewish Community adds to their history of persecution.  This is a repeated pattern due to a continued cultural phenomenon deriving from their tribal roots.  It's an intrinsic toxic characteristic.

Ultimately, the imprudence was on the part of the persecutors of Bishop W. 

Quote: As Bishop Fellay said, the problem is that Bishop Williamson is "radioactive" -- or at the least will always be viewed as such and that is unjust.

If Msgr. Williamson is allowed to make circuits and give confirmation and give Orders again, then the cloud of "Holocaust Denier" will always follow him and will be transfered to others. All of the good sermons, good conferences, good confessions and assistance that he could provide to the SSPX and the faithful are now tainted, and all over debate on an historical issue, not a doctrinal. Bishop Fellay also has his hands tied as well, because he has damn good priest and bishop in Msgr. Williamson which he may never be able to use ever again.

That was always going to happen.  If Pius XII could be smeared with fiction, no traditional Catholic can avoid it.  It's not even worth avoiding.  It's only worth opposing and putting an end to the pussyfooting around when it comes to feigned sensitivities.  If we get bloodied up both figuratively and literally, it will only bring grace to the Church. 

Just as Pius XII is turning out to be a tough character to sink because there is enough documentation to prove the sanctity in his actions during WWII, the weight of "the Holocaust" smear tactice has proved not to be tough enough to sink a holy Pope.  The Church has drawn the line on the smear, ironically that line was drawn by Paul VI, the source of so much trouble. 

The Church could roll this whole thing back if they would start acting with the strength that God gave it.  A good smackdown on the subject of propriety to those specific Jewish groups that have pushed too far would be wonderful.  The conciliar Church has been hobbled by the girly, touchy-feely stuff. 

The SSPX could have shown this, by avoiding any capitulation on the natural justice of a man's right to use his God given reason.  Heaping emotional distress on a man by rabble rousers who present themselve as being unable to avoid being insulted should be fought tooth and nail. 

Had the SSPX done that with the spirit of holding out like the Knights of St. John held Malta.  We would be in a better situation today and in the foreseeable future. 

Quote: Bishop Williamson, himself, recognized the imprudence of his choice, probably because he realized exactly this.

I don't think the bishop expected to be defended for his opinions other than the right to use them, but I think he regrets being sandbagged by his own. 

Quote: That said, regarding certain issues Bishop Williamson has addressed on the historical level:

It is, frankly, asinine that things like 9/11 and the racial persecutions during WWII (News Flash: it was more than just Jews), are held by some to be fixed certain facts. 

There's a lot of money and influence tied up in one view of history. 

Quote:  It's actually a typically American thing (as much as I love my country) to think we are always on the winning/good side and always right, yet it was we who leveled two of the Catholic centers of Japan, destroyed Monte Casino and committed plenty of other atrocities.

It's another industry with Hannity and Glenn Beck brainwashing people with catch phrases, selective history, inaccurate history and they are both victims of it and making victims of it by appealing to the more moral right in the U.S.

Quote: The events of history are fixed, but our knowledge of them evolves and we get things right and wrong, we have some who obfuscate and some who clarify. A good historian should not be afraid to question the accuracy of number on anything, but he should also be prepared to do good research and try his best to remove any bias if he is to try to find the truth. Why would good Catholics accept everything parroted by modern historians, when those same modern historians are the first to make the "Crusades" and "Inquisition" into paddles with which to flagellate the Church. The "official" stories may be mostly true, but where holes exist, a good historian will point out the problems (even if he has nothing to propose in its place). 

Reclaiming our history is one of those points of defending our faith that has barely been scratched upon.  I've found that Catholics often are surprised when they find out we are not so guilty of atrocities as they have been mislead into believing.  Tom Woods' "How the Catholic Church built Wester Civilization" is an excellent tool for clearing the fog of history. 

Quote: Anyone who looks to a non-Catholic, secular government for truth is a fool. Anyone who thinks they know the whole truth about any historical event (outside Doctrine) is a liar and a fool.

Amen!  :amen:
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