How to convert her??
#21
Quote: Well, were not at the point in the relationship where I could have a serious talk with her about some of these issues because I'm still trying to get to know her, but thanks anyway for your concern!

Seems like you are way ahead of yourself.  Here is the plan.  Make sure she knows that you are a Traditional Catholic, and it is very important part of your life.  You will always be a Traditionalist.

Invite her to go to the TLM with you, because you would like to go to Mass with your girlfriend, since you are a Catholic.  You should go every Sunday together anyways.

Refuse to go to the N.O.  Don't overly criticize it.  Just say it isn't close to the TLM and you don't like it.  Don't EVER give the impression that you consider people who go there to be stupid, etc...

You can have the serious discussions once you all are talking about marriage.  Chill out a little before then.  You might discover some other skeleton in the closet before you need to discuss which Mass you all would attend.

Taking oral contraceptives for a medical condition is fine if she is not sexually active.  Then again, if you are fornicating, who cares about contraception, you are already wallowing in mortal sin.
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#22
The girl doesn't sound hopeless at all! Give her Humanae Vitae to read, as you said, and maybe the excellent article by G.E.M. Anscombe about why contraception is wrong. (Somebody posted it on this site not too long ago. It is absolutely solid -- Anscombe was a brilliant philosopher -- but written in a way that is very easy to understand.) You might also want to find out the particulars of her medical condition because if you married her, the chemicals she is taking could become an issue.

If she is truly a neo-conservative Catholic, she's already very close to tradition; you'll have more things in common than you will have differences. Many can be brought over quite easily just by having a few things of which they are generally ignorant pointed out to them.
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#23
true, it could grow on her.  But If you are serious about being a "traditionalist" then I stand by my point that you should avoid dating someone who doesnt like, or wont go to, TLM.  It doesnt make them a bad person, but if the point of dating or courting is to find out if you have things in common, and marriageable or whatever, that would be a big red flag to me.
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#24
I think you've got to give people a chance to warm up to the TLM.  It's pretty foreign to Catholics raised in the Novus Ordo, and they've been told a lot of scary things about it.  If she weren't willing to go, that'd be one thing; but if she's willing to try it, who knows, maybe she'll love it.  I know one couple where the wife started going to RCIA because she wanted to date the guy and he wouldn't date a non-Catholic, and now she's at least as traditional as he is.  If you don't have a pool of traditional women in your area to pick from, odds are you're going to have to find someone who's open to it.
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#25
I talked to a friend kinda about this last night.  I don't get out much and he says he's got a nack for fixing up people.  3 for 3.  He said he wouldn't try to fix me up with a Novus ordian.  I said that would be to much work .  This coming from someone still learning and not even catholic(yet).  Traditional catholic girls/women are not easy to find in my area.
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#26
(04-20-2010, 07:50 PM)Mhoram Wrote: I think you've got to give people a chance to warm up to the TLM.  It's pretty foreign to Catholics raised in the Novus Ordo, and they've been told a lot of scary things about it.  If she weren't willing to go, that'd be one thing; but if she's willing to try it, who knows, maybe she'll love it.  I know one couple where the wife started going to RCIA because she wanted to date the guy and he wouldn't date a non-Catholic, and now she's at least as traditional as he is.  If you don't have a pool of traditional women in your area to pick from, odds are you're going to have to find someone who's open to it.

The first time I went to a TLM I hated it. Now going to an NO Mass makes me sad. Sometimes people need time, and the means to understand what they are experiencing.
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#27
I'm being picky granted, but this imprecision:

Quote: If she is truly a neo-conservative Catholic, 

will get you in trouble in other forums.  Being neo-conservative is like being democrat, republican, or socialist.  It is only tangentially related to Catholicism.

The term is neo-Catholic.

It is confusing because both start with "neo", and "C".  But that is all they have in common.  I know many neo Catholics who are definitely not neo-Conservative.  And I know a few neo-Cons who are Traditionalists.

Sorry for derailing the thread.
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#28
A few points:
  • [o] Dating is about marriage, so be clear to yourself. If you planning on dating someone for more than two years before thinking about marriage, you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons and you may be committing serious sins. Traditional guidelines were that one should not "court" for more than 12-18 months (usually it was shorter), and an engagement should not be longer than 9 months without a just reason, since such a relationship is a necessary occasion of mortal sin, and delay does not help keep vigilance against sins, but invites more temptation to sin. In the modern world, especially with non-traditionalists or those who are going to convert, I could see possibly going 24-30 months for a maximum length. The whole idea, though, is to keep you on track to marriage, not comfortable at the "significant other" stage.
    [o] Don't put off serious conversations until later. The result will be much more emotional trauma for everyone involved if the big points aren't agreed upon early along.
    [o] Don't approach serious conversations like a lecture, where she's the student and you the teacher. Bring the subject up casually without trying to "prep" her for some big serious talk. Talk over some coffee or something just as you would any casual conversation. In any marriage (and that's what you're looking toward), the serious conversations have to happen. It's best when you're open and don't have to prepare for battle beforehand.
    [o] Be clear about your limits. You attend the traditional Mass exclusively. You aren't going to go to the Novus Ordo outside of a wedding or a funeral and even then maybe not. She's going to have to be willing, if married to do the same. You don't have to drop it on her like you're ordering her around, but you have to make clear that this is what you'd want things to be like. Approaching it in a humorous fashion often works best, but she needs to know where you're limits are and what you expect. If she knows this, she's much more willing to bend to your desires than if you try to order her around.
    [o] If you want her to become a traditionalist, expose her to some good, easy-going, traditionalists -- especially some good families and young couples. Make sure they're reasonably "normal" people, not wackos that are going to be talking about "The Third Secret" and the "False Pope Paul" at dinner.
    [o] Don't give her documents or books to read unless she asks for them. Talk to her. Answer her questions and make sure to let her talk, too. Make her ask you to explain if she's confused, and then interact, don't lecture. You'll learn more from it anyway.
    [o] When talking to her, don't be afraid to admit you don't know and you'll look it up or ask for her. You might even consider when you do know an answer, but she asks a good question saying, "You know, that's a really good question. I'm going to have to look that one up!" to encourage her as well. Last thing you want to do is come off looking like a know-it-all and pushy.
    [o] On the issue of contraception. I dated a reasonably moral girl whose doctor had her on the pill for "reproductive issues" and not for contraceptive purposes. Eventually asking in more detail, when the whole issue of contraception arose, I asked what kind of issues we were talking about (since ultimately those would affect me if we were to marry). She told me that she had just had some very painful menstrual periods so the doctor told her to stop them by using the pill. Aside from a one or two really bad days each month, she was perfectly fine without the pill. While we never ended up marrying, I've heard lots of similar stories, and it seems that many doctors overprescribe hormonal contraceptives so women can avoid difficult periods. In my opinion, given the side-effects, even if a woman is chaste and continent, the benefits don't outweigh the risks of this. You might bring up that you've heard that doctors over-prescribe the pill and mention the Catholic teaching, so again, she's clear where you stand. Again, no lecturing, causal questions that don't go to far are far more effective. When I dealt with the issue, I approached it with a joke or two at first and then gently asked a few questions and let her talk.
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#29
Quote: not wackos that are going to be talking about "The Third Secret"
The only wackos are those who, despite the overwhelming evidence,  believe that all of the Third Secret was revealed. 
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#30
(04-20-2010, 08:35 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: . . . it seems that many doctors overprescribe hormonal contraceptives so women can avoid difficult periods. In my opinion, given the side-effects, even if a woman is chaste and continent, the benefits don't outweigh the risks of this. You might bring up that you've heard that doctors over-prescribe the pill and mention the Catholic teaching, so again, she's clear where you stand.
I agree that over-prescribing contraceptives is a common problem.  If you talk to her about it, be clear about which aspects of this are a moral issue and which are practical considerations.  "Don't contracept" is moral.  "Avoid unnecessary medications with side-effects" is practical.
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