How to convert her??
#31
(04-20-2010, 08:42 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: not wackos that are going to be talking about "The Third Secret"
The only wackos are those who, despite the overwhelming evidence,  believe that all of the Third Secret was revealed. 

Not really ...

It's one thing to want the consecration done. It's one thing to say that we don't have the actually full Third Secret revealed.

It's quite another thing to bring it up in dinner conversation with someone who is new to Tradition. It's really sad to see some of our traditionalist fold try to initiate newbies by quizzing them on how much they know about minor details of what it is to be a Catholic that they've decided are of critical importance. Indeed. Talk about the Third Secret. Great! But it's not the most major issue one needs to understand in becoming a traditionalists.

We're crazy as it is. Introducing a novice to some normalcy, good people and good culture without burdening them has converted lots of folks. Hammering them with details about the "replacement Sister Lucy" or the intricate details of a Fatima timeline is going to scare them away.

Chesterton said what converted him was the realization that Catholicism was the only religion where a pipe, a pint and a cross were not considered contradictory ... that makes a life-long Catholic. Heavy-handing them, ensures failure or scrupulosity.
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#32
Thank you all for your helpful suggestions and tips on the matter!! I will carefully consider them in the coming weeks! ;D

As as far as the contraception is concerned, she only uses them for her medical reproductive reasons... We are both chaste and plan on being that way  until marriage, if God wills it!!
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#33
(04-20-2010, 10:24 PM)crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote: As as far as the contraception is concerned, she only uses them for her medical reproductive reasons... We are both chaste and plan on being that way  until marriage, if God wills it!!

I think we all understood this. Good of you to reaffirm and be assured of prayers for continued chastity. Such requires, especially in our culture, lots of virtue.

From before, I made a suggestion that discussing contraception (if it needs to be done) could be done easily by tactfully mentioning the medical use of a contraceptive for other purposes. Clearly there's no moral issue for a celibate woman to take a contraceptive. However, I would consider some problems you might encounter and your various discussions might eventually highlight these. Clearly, if married, a woman would have to completely stop using such contraceptives. If there is a medical issue that would be a problem with out the hormones, then is it possible for her to stop using the pill? If so, then practically, is it good for her now?

My though, an extension from earlier, is that if her doctor is prescribing contraceptives, he is likely not a Catholic doctor (or at least likely doesn't follow the Church doctrine). Obviously here it's not a moral issue, but most Catholic doctors I know won't even prescribe contraceptives for chaste women, so it's my hypothesis here. If married, would this doctor continue to recommend the contraceptives or would the doctor modify any needed treatment? Is the pill actually necessary now? Are giving up the benefits going to be a problem in marriage?

It's a touchy subject, but a few poignant questions along these lines might be addressed at the appropriate moment. Last you would want is a woman who has been living in a chaste manner, but using contraceptives to ease reproductive difficulties to enter marriage, intend to stop using the contraceptives and then find that she's unwilling to tolerate the negative effects of abandoning the drug and either suffers greatly for it (making married life difficult), or goes back on the contraceptives (making it into a moral issue).

Anyway, just some thoughts, since I've dealt with a similar situation before.

Best of luck and of course prayers for you and your lady!
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#34
Try and get her to read some books by Catholic mothers on contraception and the contraceptive mentality.  As you begin to think about this topic and research it you realise that the Church was absolutely spot on in its prediction.  A contraceptive mentality leads to an abortive mentality.  Humane Vitae is about the only thing that stops me becoming a card carrying SV because when the chips were down and the bishops and Catholic of the world would have loved Pope Paul VI to cave in and say contraception was OK within marriage he did the reverse.  Given all that we know about Pope Paul VIth otherwise, one may reasonably only conclude that this was the Holy Ghost acting.  I do.

For a lot of Catholics at the time Humane Vitae was a huge shock.  They expected the Church would go along with the world and cave on contraception.  After all it had with the Second Vatican Council and the liturgy.

Don't marry this woman until she is convinced herself that a contraceptive mentality is wrong.  Otherwise you're going to have a lot of angst in the marriage, or green days and red days.  As soon as she has what she considers a large enough family, then she'll stick te knife in over the contraceptive issue.  Everytime the kids get on hers or your wick she'll throw it back at you and mock you for wanting more.  The only way you're going to be able to have a natural and normal sex-life and a happy marriage is if she surrenders to the will of God.  If she doesn't you'll never get the monkey off your back.

And she has to come to this conclusion on her own.  Don't let her tell you what you want to hear merely to keep you sweet and get a ring on her finger and a wedding day.

One last tip.  Introduce her only to relatively well off, large Catholic families where the mother looks reasonably attractive.  My wife and plenty of other women I know are impressed by this because when it comes down to it, there are actually many more women who would like to have lots of children than will ever admit to it, even non Catholic ones.  What stops most women is 1. the damage to their figure they perceive multiple childbirths will do (they call this their health but actually they mean that then want a teen body shape into their mid thirties or early forties because of media pressure and television shows like desperate housewives and sex and the city.  2.  What they perceive as the lower standard of living that more children will mean.

I know at least a dozen non Catholic women who if they married a well off man with a six figure stable income and no debts would willingly have half a dozen kids provided they had a personal trainer and a gold credit card to by nice clothes.
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#35
(04-21-2010, 06:04 AM)ggreg Wrote: One last tip.  Introduce her only to relatively well off, large Catholic families where the mother looks reasonably attractive.  My wife and plenty of other women I know are impressed by this because when it comes down to it, there are actually many more women who would like to have lots of children than will ever admit to it, even non Catholic ones.  What stops most women is 1. the damage to their figure they perceive multiple childbirths will do (they call this their health but actually they mean that then want a teen body shape into their mid thirties or early forties because of media pressure and television shows like desperate housewives and sex and the city.  2.  What they perceive as the lower standard of living that more children will mean.

That's excellent advice.  I'd add: try to make sure these women have more going on in their lives than cleaning up after their kids.  I don't mean working moms, but a home business or charity work or a hobby or something.  In addition to the fear of what it'll do to their figure, I've heard women say they're afraid they'll lose their selves; that they won't have the time or energy for anything except the kids.  Society reinforces that by saying to pursue your career or other interests before having kids, implying that it'll be impossible to do anything else after you start.  If she can meet a couple women who are in decent shape, did something with their hair that morning, and can discuss the latest book they read or how their Ebay store is going---all while they've got four kids underfoot and another one on the way---that'll make a huge impression.

I don't want to downplay the huge amount of time and energy that go into motherhood.  But some are able to pull it off with a certain level of serenity (and I see a lot more of that among traditional types, for whatever reason), while others (whether they have 1 kid or 10), will give the impression that it simply consumed their bodies and souls.  Avoid the latter.
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#36
Thanks for all the advice!
And for the record, she wishes there were more stay-at-home mom's today, so it sounds like that is something she would love to do.... She is also a runner(She ran a half marathon over the weekend), so taking care of kids is something that wouldn't wear her out.

Anyway, I think I'm getting way ahead of myself, as I only met her 2 months ago.
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#37
Quote: Not really ...

It's one thing to want the consecration done. It's one thing to say that we don't have the actually full Third Secret revealed.

It's quite another thing to bring it up in dinner conversation with someone who is new to Tradition. It's really sad to see some of our traditionalist fold try to initiate newbies by quizzing them on how much they know about minor details of what it is to be a Catholic that they've decided are of critical importance. Indeed. Talk about the Third Secret. Great! But it's not the most major issue one needs to understand in becoming a traditionalists.

What you describe is a lack of tack, or someone with poor social graces.  Or someone who has no idea how to win converts to our side.    I agree you shouldn't bombard a potential "convert" with Fatima from day one.  That is not the issue.  The issue is calling people who talk about the Third Secret a "wacko".  That is wrong.

By the way, one reason why I became a Traditionalist was because of the Third Secret.  Actually, the more that I think about it, talking to a serious neo-Catholic who has bad feeling about what he sees going on in the Church and linking it to the Third Secret would be a good approach.  But probably NOT a good idea in this particular case.
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#38
Quote: Thanks for all the advice!
And for the record, she wishes there were more stay-at-home mom's today, so it sounds like that is something she would love to do.... She is also a runner(She ran a half marathon over the weekend), so taking care of kids is something that wouldn't wear her out.

Anyway, I think I'm getting way ahead of myself, as I only met her 2 months ago.

Take it slow.  You may find out she is just ignorant (true definition) of certain things, and is quite agreeable to your beliefs.  At this point in your relationship, set a good example.  And invite her to the TLM.

Again, knowing  the female mind, make sure that you NEVER give the impression that someone who goes to the N.O. is an idiot.  She will be looking for that.  And it is not true, as most in the N.O. are completely ignorant of the TLM.

Good luck.
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#39
(04-21-2010, 10:41 AM)James02 Wrote: By the way, one reason why I became a Traditionalist was because of the Third Secret.  Actually, the more that I think about it, talking to a serious neo-Catholic who has bad feeling about what he sees going on in the Church and linking it to the Third Secret would be a good approach.  But probably NOT a good idea in this particular case.

Well, would you look at that!!! I became a Traditional Catholic because of almost the same reasons... It had to do with the 3rd Secret, but it was initially via the words and wisdom of Fr. Malachi Martin and Fr. Gruner. And we all know they both have been called  "Wackos" too.... I guess were all just wackos then???  :tinfoilhat:
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#40
(04-20-2010, 06:02 PM)i.p.i. Wrote:
(04-20-2010, 05:36 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(04-20-2010, 05:00 PM)crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote:
(04-20-2010, 04:58 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: Does she understand it?

I THINK she understands it, but I don't know. Her Dr. says she needs to be on contraception because she has a medical problem with her reproductive system.

Um, it isn't contraceptive if it isn't contracepting. Just because the substance is marketed as a contraceptive, that doesn't mean that is all it can do.

Also, at this point, I do not think it matters (except for medical reasons), unless she is doing anything that is life creating.

exactly.  oral contraceptives are used for purposes other than contraception and when they are used for reasons other than contraception, and the woman is not sexually active, there's nothing wrong with it.  

don't push her about switching from the OF to the EF.  if she likes the EF, she'll be more likely to listen to what are new ideas to her.  if she hates it, you have a problem.  be sure she knows what to expect beforehand, though you don't have to explain it in great detail, just tell her the dress code as in "by the way, at my chapel, women dress more modestly than at most Masses."  she'll probably ask what that means and you can explain in brief 'well, they don't wear pants or short skirts or anything sleeveless, and they always wear a hat or veil."  

then give her the small veil you bought her and tell her how nice she looks in it.  (so be sure it's a pretty veil!)  a big mantilla might freak her out now and you don't want her looking like a nun. most girls today aren't used to wearing hats except maybe in winter.
you want her to like the gift.

if you two are old enough to consider marriage, you'll have to determine if you can compromise on important issues.   it's not exactly unusual for Protestants to become Catholic when they marry Catholics so changing from the OF to the EF or vice versa should be workable.  you're both already Catholic, after all.  

No more than 25% of the ladies at my ICKSP oratory do this. 

OP:  If she goes with you, let her do what the majority of women do in the chapel. 
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