How to convert her??
#51
(04-20-2010, 04:53 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Most "ordinary" Catholics (like people who go to church regularly but don't read apologetics or Internet fora) aren't even aware of the various ideological factions.

Nor are they likely to be fully aware of the contraception issue; at least, not any more than little soundbytes like "the Pope hates condoms". Of course that's not going to make any sense. The Catholic faith's opposition to contraception can only be understood if one has a solidly Catholic worldview.

Boy is that the truth I remember when I was a NO'er like that such blissful ignorance sometimes I long for those days.
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#52
(04-20-2010, 05:27 PM)Walty Wrote: Keep with it, man.  Talk to her.  Take her to Mass.  But don't push her.  Lead by example and see how it's going in a month or two and reevaluate.

This is what I would do. But take her to Mass if she has a truly Catholic mindset she will be drawn to the TLM.
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#53
(04-21-2010, 01:35 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(04-21-2010, 10:31 AM)Mhoram Wrote:
(04-21-2010, 06:04 AM)ggreg Wrote: One last tip.  Introduce her only to relatively well off, large Catholic families where the mother looks reasonably attractive.  My wife and plenty of other women I know are impressed by this because when it comes down to it, there are actually many more women who would like to have lots of children than will ever admit to it, even non Catholic ones.  What stops most women is 1. the damage to their figure they perceive multiple childbirths will do (they call this their health but actually they mean that then want a teen body shape into their mid thirties or early forties because of media pressure and television shows like desperate housewives and sex and the city.  2.  What they perceive as the lower standard of living that more children will mean.

That's excellent advice.  I'd add: try to make sure these women have more going on in their lives than cleaning up after their kids.  I don't mean working moms, but a home business or charity work or a hobby or something.  In addition to the fear of what it'll do to their figure, I've heard women say they're afraid they'll lose their selves; that they won't have the time or energy for anything except the kids.  Society reinforces that by saying to pursue your career or other interests before having kids, implying that it'll be impossible to do anything else after you start.  If she can meet a couple women who are in decent shape, did something with their hair that morning, and can discuss the latest book they read or how their Ebay store is going---all while they've got four kids underfoot and another one on the way---that'll make a huge impression.

I don't want to downplay the huge amount of time and energy that go into motherhood.  But some are able to pull it off with a certain level of serenity (and I see a lot more of that among traditional types, for whatever reason), while others (whether they have 1 kid or 10), will give the impression that it simply consumed their bodies and souls.  Avoid the latter.

Sorry to point out the elephant in the living room, but the only really important thing is to prove to her that YOU can support a large family and not have your future wife living a life of poverty, exhaustion, and unhappiness. How other people "appear" is only a tiny piece of the puzzle. Even the most traddy of trad girls will be wary of a guy who wants a large family without any apparent means of supporting one.

The point is that there is support and "support".  Many women that have grown up in a first world country would probably think that two of their children sharing a room was a mark of poverty.  Most people tend to define their acceptable standard of living as better than their parents and the same as their peers at work or school.  Three and four bedroom houses are available within municipalities for $500,000 or less.  If you have 8 kids and the parents sleep on a sofa bed in the sitting room, like mine did then you can get by.  Such houses  Affordable on circa $100k per year gross.  9 bedroom houses are not.  They might also think that a foreign holiday, 50 inch flat screen TV, real wood flooring and a $20,000 kitchen are normal too.  Very few jobs pay more than $100k per year gross, so it stands to reason that not all hard working traditionalists will be able to afford to give their wives a 97th percentile lifestyle on a modal salary.

To buy a $1m house you have to be on way above average income, and it stands to reason that by the definition of average, MOST traditionalists are not going to be able to earn way above average.  They are competing for everything they buy with two income families in most cases.

A large family or separate beds (rarely mutually agreed in my experience of friends who do this) are the only two courses open to Catholics.  Being open to life and not wanting another child because of the stress of living in a "small" house and being "poor" and "exhausted" are difficult concepts to put side by side.  What does "poor" mean anyway in modern day America or Britain, where unless you are exceptional unlucky or ill and uninsured in the case of the USA, there is enough help for anyone to eat three square meals a day.  Our exhausted today hardly compares with women who used to work in fields from sun up to sun down and then come home to a bunch of unhappy hungry kids.

If Americans were truly poor, then Mexicans would not be risking their lives to illegally cross your border and do the jobs you don't want to do.  No poor person would spend their money and time migrationg to another poor country to do the lowest of lowly jobs.
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#54
(04-21-2010, 05:48 PM)Satori Wrote: Rather than introducing her only to obviously "normal" families with plenty of money and attractive mothers of many, I think it would be better to introduce her to a variety of traditional Catholic families, all "good" but not all beautiful and well-off. It's great to see good-looking, well-dressed women calmly directing their broods, but if that's all you see and you yourself are not doing so well, it's very discouraging. Seeing only beautiful, "together" women who want for nothing could be intimidating. Better to see, as well, good women who may have to struggle with weight problems and finding money to pay bills, yet try really hard to cope and be holy in spite of difficulties.

You're obviously not in software sales.  Or any kind of selling related career.
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#55
(04-22-2010, 11:49 AM)ggreg Wrote:
(04-21-2010, 05:48 PM)Satori Wrote: Rather than introducing her only to obviously "normal" families with plenty of money and attractive mothers of many, I think it would be better to introduce her to a variety of traditional Catholic families, all "good" but not all beautiful and well-off. It's great to see good-looking, well-dressed women calmly directing their broods, but if that's all you see and you yourself are not doing so well, it's very discouraging. Seeing only beautiful, "together" women who want for nothing could be intimidating. Better to see, as well, good women who may have to struggle with weight problems and finding money to pay bills, yet try really hard to cope and be holy in spite of difficulties.

You're obviously not in software sales.  Or any kind of selling related career.

No, but I've been female for 37 years and have intimately known a number of other females, so I have a pretty good idea of how females think.
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#56
(04-22-2010, 11:48 AM)ggreg Wrote: Such houses  Affordable on circa $100k per year gross. 

Wow, you're hilarious. If I could find a guy who made that much a year, I'd be thrilled. Most of the trad guys I know don't even have jobs. You're living in a daydream.
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#57
(04-22-2010, 12:35 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(04-22-2010, 11:48 AM)ggreg Wrote: Such houses  Affordable on circa $100k per year gross. 

Wow, you're hilarious. If I could find a guy who made that much a year, I'd be thrilled. Most of the trad guys I know don't even have jobs. You're living in a daydream.

I make about $40,000 per year, but I live in NJ... On this, I can barely afford the apartment and my other expensives if I only save up $100 a month...Very sad, isnt it??
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#58
Quote: No, but I've been female for 37 years and have intimately known a number of other females, so I have a pretty good idea of how females think.

They think?  I've always characterized it as random eruptions of emotions.  ;D
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#59
(04-21-2010, 05:48 PM)Satori Wrote: It's great to see good-looking, well-dressed women calmly directing their broods, but if that's all you see and you yourself are not doing so well, it's very discouraging. Seeing only beautiful, "together" women who want for nothing could be intimidating.

True, but I don't think the idea was to convince her that having a large brood would be all peaches and cream.  It was just to balance the message that's undoubtedly already been drilled into her by entertainment and mainstream society: "Kids will ruin your figure and steal your soul.  You won't have time for friends or interests; heck you'll be lucky to find time for a bath.  And if you have more than two, you're obviously some sort of freak who doesn't care about the environment."
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#60
(04-22-2010, 12:44 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: No, but I've been female for 37 years and have intimately known a number of other females, so I have a pretty good idea of how females think.

They think?  I've always characterized it as random eruptions of emotions.  ;D

We sometimes think. We consume large bags of potato chips and lots of chocolate bars to get our brains going. Oops, now I'm going to have to eat frog eyeballs since I just spilled one of the Secrets.
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