illegal immigration and you.
#11
Mhoram and James2 are on the mark.  If you have any doubts, read the constitution.  The defense of the country is paramount.  gg
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#12
Illegals are coming here and killing Americans. They are killing Americans with guns and drugs, or they are killing Americans by driving without licenses. They already have broken the law by coming into the country illegally, they have no problem breaking other laws. Ask the hundreds, if not thousands of Americans that have been murdered by these illegals. If you want to come to this country for a better life then do it legally.

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#13
(04-20-2010, 09:15 PM)Mhoram Wrote: I'd agree, except that we're not talking about a free market today, we're talking about a welfare state.  Some people want to come make a living with their own two hands, true, but others will come for the free goodies, and there's nothing in place to encourage the first group and discourage the second.  On the contrary: the Democratic Party and race-baiting groups like La Raza have every reason to encourage the second group.

It's a different topic, but I'm reminded of Father Corapi's comments about how socialism lowers the lowest common denominator.    "The common error is to think that socialism helps the poor and disenfranchised. As Pope Leo XIII pointed out as long ago as 1891 in his Encyclical “Rerum Novarum”, socialism does not help the poor. Rather, it reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery..., while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital."

I'm not equating socialism with illegal immigration, but I think the consequences are similar.

There is a point where the abuse of illegal immigration becomes unsustainable to the country that they wanted to come to in the first place. 
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#14
I am 100% for immigration.  I am also 100% against illegal immigration.  I see nothing un-catholic about that.
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#15
(04-21-2010, 02:54 AM)Petertherock Wrote: Illegals are coming here and killing Americans. They are killing Americans with guns and drugs, or they are killing Americans by driving without licenses. They already have broken the law by coming into the country illegally, they have no problem breaking other laws. Ask the hundreds, if not thousands of Americans that have been murdered by these illegals. If you want to come to this country for a better life then do it legally.

Americans are goin to foreign countries and kill innocent peoples. Tehre are killing them with bombs and machine guns, there are killing them without vital interes of the United State. There are killining hundreds of thousand,.They create chaos in their countries.

Feces happens, and Christians see that in both side.
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#16
Anyway the point here is its a tricky plm. Mexico is goin to hell and has become considerably worse the last 10 yrs or 20 for that matter. The states perticularly cali and others rely on and need illegals. Illegals flee from what's essentially a war zone in the north o mexico ie juarez. This is due to the drug trade. The states is the number one consumer of drugs in the world. Thus the cycle ever continues. The answer isn't opening borders. That's stupid and insane the violence in mexico is already spilling over. No nation in its right mind would leave its borders open along a front of a war zone. Mexio is so curropt its hard to even type how curropt the place is. Having lived there I can honesty say its the curropt place I've ever been to. That offers a stability but it also offers instability. Been to italy as well. But I was kid so can't speak about the curroption in italia. Opening the borders won't solve anything then help the demise of the states. Closing them won't solve it either. In short
Its tricky. But one should not have a weird romantic view of illegals. I dunno most o my family was illegal in the states. Not from mexico of course. So I am very sypethetic.
But don't be folled
Opening up borders along a war zone is with little controls is dumb
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#17
(04-21-2010, 05:06 AM)F-14 Dave Wrote: I'm not equating socialism with illegal immigration, but I think the consequences are similar.

True, they aren't the same, but we're at the point where one is being used to encourage the other.  We let lots of illegals in to provide cheap goods and labor, and then we claim we need more socialism to provide for all the cheap laborers and unemployed that we've created.

The reason we think fondly of the last big surge of immigrants a century ago is that it stopped.  They were developing the same problems then: ghettos of desperately poor foreigners keeping to themselves, not speaking the language, with high internal crime rates.  In my town there are two Catholic churches practically within a stone's throw of each other, because the Irish and Germans each had to have their own church.  Only after the government severely curtailed immigration did those people come out of the ghettos, start learning the language, and become part of the culture and productive members of it.  It's the result of stopping immigration that we're nostalgic about, not effects of the immigration itself.
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#18
Illegal immigration is a problem that the government has no interest in fixing, or there would be harsher actions taken against companies who hire illegal immigrants.    By leaving the incentive of a job here, who can blame them for wanting to come here and support their families? 

The problem is, it seems to be a bigger drain on resources than a help to the economy.  California spends billions of dollars a year paying for free health care and other services for illegal immigrants, and who benefits?  Companies who hired them?  People paying a bit less for fresh fruits and vegetables at the grocery store? 

Ask an immigrant who fought through the process legally if they support illegal immigration, and the answer will probably be a resounding NO.  Giving someone a pass on breaking the law just because they found a way in 10 years ago is not necessarily the best solution.

Just imagine how many more illegal immigrants would be here if our land border was next to China.  I think it's good that we have an ocean between us.

My wife and I show our lack of support for illegal immigration by refusing to hire day workers at Home Depot, but every one of our friends seem to think it's a great cheap labor source, and this is exactly the problem -  there is job incentive here, so immigrants will continue to come here illegally.  So, if you enjoy cheap California grown food at the grocery store, if you hire a guy standing outside Home Depot in California, there's a pretty good chance you are showing your support for illegal immigration.

It's just like the argument of "I don't want to support building anything in China", yet everyone goes to Wal-Mart to buy things because it is cheaper.  We, as a country, lose our ideals pretty quickly when it comes down to saving money and providing for our families.  Some have no choice, others choose to buy cheapest to save money for something else.  Find me anyone who'll say "I'll pay 10% more for that gas because it didn't come from foreign oil" or "I'll buy that toy for 5% more because I knew it was built in the US vs China".  It is a rare thing to find.  But, this is a topic for another thread.

Illegal immigration, regardless of if we agree or disagree with it, is here to stay, and will get worse before it gets better, because there are no checks and balances.  Does anyone know, with the new healthcare bill, will illegal immigrants ALSO be fined if they don't have govt healthcare, or do the rules not apply to them because they're not citizens?
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#19
I live in a border town, so I see this problem first hand.  Before I start though.  I must point out that I am of Hispanic descent and a 3rd generation American citizen.  My grandparents came here legally and were contributing members of society.  My grandfather worked hard to become a doctor and had his own practice as a pediatrician until he retired, while my grandmother was a homemaker (Yes, back in the 30s my grandfather suffered a lot of discrimination for being Mexican, but he managed).  Their children, a doctor, an aeronautical engineer, and two teachers (including my  mother), are hard working/tax paying members of society.  We, the grandchildren, which include, an electrical engineer, a civil engineer, lawyer, accountant, speech pathologist, physical therapist, law enforcement, business owners, finance adviser, and a teacher, are also hard working/tax paying members of society. I must also point out that my family was never into the 'chicano' movement and we have always been proud Americans.

The reason I pointed out my family history is because I want to make the point that I can see the difference between Mexicans who really want to work hard and make a difference in their lives, and Mexicans who come to work, take their dollars, not pay taxes, send the money back to Mexico (so the U.S. loses the money), use our health care for free and really do expect the U.S. to cater to them.  Unfortunately, there are more of that kind around here than the first I mentioned.

There are also the Mexicans who live across the border, who apply for madicare/madicaid here, give a fake address, get through the loopholes and cross the border with visitor visas to come to the doctor for free, go shopping and fill out a form to get the taxes they just paid for  back...because, after all, 'they are not Americans'.


Having said that, of course we must be good Catholics and help the needy, but if you lived here, you would see that these 'needy' people reap and take from tax payers.  Also, you must know that the Catholic Church does not want you to break the law, which these people are...whether they are dangerous criminals or not, they are breaking the law. 

Also, YOU have property boundaries in your property, you have fences and gates and door locks.  You would not let just any body into your property unless you yourself accepted them in.  So why is that so different from our national borders?  If someone comes into your house through the back door and says, hey, "I'm just here because I want a better place to live in" and starts taking the food from your fridge without asking I don't think you would be very willing to help him/her.  But if someone KNOCKS on your door and asks to come in because they need a place to stay...well, then its up to you to welcome them in and let them have your food.
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#20
(04-21-2010, 06:25 AM)glgas Wrote:
(04-21-2010, 02:54 AM)Petertherock Wrote: Illegals are coming here and killing Americans. They are killing Americans with guns and drugs, or they are killing Americans by driving without licenses. They already have broken the law by coming into the country illegally, they have no problem breaking other laws. Ask the hundreds, if not thousands of Americans that have been murdered by these illegals. If you want to come to this country for a better life then do it legally.

Americans are goin to foreign countries and kill innocent peoples. Tehre are killing them with bombs and machine guns, there are killing them without vital interes of the United State. There are killining hundreds of thousand,.They create chaos in their countries.

Feces happens, and Christians see that in both side.

You must be having the same problem that DK has...except DK makes sense.

There hasn't even been hundreds of thousands killed in both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars...unless you count the hundreds of thousands that Saddam Hussein and the Taliban killed of their own people.

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