Feelings about Luther and Lutheranism
#51
(04-22-2010, 09:56 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: No CHRIST does. And he said u won't be gettin ypur ass saved unless through him. Hence if you do not accept CHRIST your not saved. Beoing not saved meansd your where?
How do you know that a person has or has not accepted Christ?  If, in the minute before death, a great sinner had perfect contrition for his sins and accepted Christ, would he be saved?  Yes.  Would anyone know?  No.
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#52
well a naked hindu drinkin goat piss and danicn with chopped off lassie tongues is a good bet hes gonna cook.
use your noodle lass. c'mon
sip sip
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#53
(04-22-2010, 10:08 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: well a naked hindu drinkin goat piss and danicn with chopped off lassie tongues is a good bet hes gonna cook.

Sure it's a good bet, but maybe he's possessed or insane and not culpable.

This discussion has come up before.  The Church will not even authoritatively say Judas is in hell.  Sure, it's likely, but it's not positively true.  So, if the Church won't declare someone in hell, even Judas,  neither will I, and I think it's a bad idea for anyone else to as well.
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#54
Anytime there was a controversy about theology during that period the gloves came off physically
and verbally, ad hominems were pretty much standard. It's not that surprising to see someone go
off on people who would have killed him had they the chance. Martin Luther had severe anxiety issues(scrupulosity)
about going to hell, as well perhaps people should, he dewelled upon it all the time being in one the strictest
Augustinian monasteries didn't help much either. As someone who has had that problem although probably not to
the extent that Luther did, I know taken to the extreme it can drive you insane. This man were he not to take the direction he did
I am convinced would have a feast day in our calender. It is also not anyones place to judge where his soul is, it usurps
God to do so. It was also not uncommon to say the least in the middle ages to dislike the Jews, those who fault
him for it are taking todays PC standards and applying them to people who lived in an almost completely different environment
which is absurd.
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#55
So its like when u get terminla cancer and the doc says. Well I can't say really when u will die. Its likely u will in a mont but shit u might last 2 and hell u might just get cured as in rare very rare so rave super rare cases it happens.
Sip
And u say uh
Thanks doc. That's pretty well what I'm hearing here. I see no salvation outside the church then in the other side o the mouth I hear but u never know just maybe.
Mmmmmmmmm
Isn't better to have caution and error on that side rather then the other?
Just sayin
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#56
Also isn't it folly for me to use an example when I'm trying to help friends back to mass or go to confession to rather then be certain say shit lad u know u just never know. No one does. So just roll the dice. U can come bacl to church and mass and the sacraments but hell even luther or marx or the marquis de sade might npot be in hell so
Roll the bones?
I dunno
Sip
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#57
(04-23-2010, 06:49 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: Also isn't it folly for me to use an example when I'm trying to help friends back to mass or go to confession to rather then be certain say shit lad u know u just never know. No one does. So just roll the dice. U can come bacl to church and mass and the sacraments but hell even luther or marx or the marquis de sade might npot be in hell so
Roll the bones?
I dunno
Sip

When people are still alive we should be doing everything we can to encourage them toward the Church and the Sacraments.  This is the path that has been given to us for finding salvation through Jesus Christ.  But when people are dead we cannot claim to know with certainty how God has judged them (with the exception of canonized saints.)
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#58
Indeed but we know how they lived.and that's my point. Very few things in life r certain. We don't just live by certainties. We use our noodle. And its not certain ill die if I jump out a plaen with no chute. Its highly likely but hell 1 or 2 lived. So the point is not living by exceptions its living by the norm. And CHRIST talked more about hell then heaven. Either he was bluffing or he really had a point. I tend to push the point of hell home to the lads. I didn't come back to the faith for the skant glad eec's I came back becaiue hell scared the shit out of me. Yeah its simploistic but its worked so far. But I might of not dpone that if I was told u just never know. I prefer concrete things, sold stuff! Fine scotch u know certaintites
My O2 but hell that's me.
Sip
Back to luther. He might o got in afterall.
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#59
I was in deep the last time we talked about this, but I go with current church teaching on this one.  We dont name who is in hell. 

I'm with you DK, that Luther is almost certainly in hell, and most people here would agree with that.  maybe its 99.9% certain that he is.  But that .01% that leaves open the possibility for a miracle death conversion is enough that the church should not be in the buisness of proclaiming that people are in hell. 

I dont think I'm a modernist, and I'd be shocked as shit if Luther, Calvin, George Tiller and Adolf Hitler are all in heaven right now.  But I dont think its my place to proclaim with 100% certitude that they are roasting.  I'm pretty sure that they are, but there is that tiny sliver of a chance that there was perfect contrition at the momnent of death.  However unlikely that may be.  I sure dont think hell is empty, some days I think I may be headed there myself.
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#60
(04-23-2010, 08:49 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: I tend to push the point of hell home to the lads. I didn't come back to the faith for the skant glad eec's I came back becaiue hell scared the shit out of me. Yeah its simploistic but its worked so far. But I might of not dpone that if I was told u just never know. I prefer concrete things, sold stuff! Fine scotch u know certaintites
My O2 but hell that's me.
Sip
Back to luther. He might o got in afterall.
It makes sense that you would want to stress the existence of hell if that was important in your personal experience of finding God.  I was the opposite.  I saw the threat of hell as a kind of intimidation and it made me more stubborn in resisting God.  I used to say that I would rather go to hell than worship a god that would send me there. 

What drew me to God was discovering that He loves me, loves me so much that He sent Jesus to die in my place.  Then I understood hell, not as the intimidation of a bullying god, but as a proof of free will and a sign that God loves me enough to give me a choice.  He longs for me to be with Him but gives me the option of rejecting Him.

I have no problem with saying that Luther said and did many things that were very wrong, but I really don't know how God has judged him.  If Luther is in hell, it is because he chose it.
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