The Luminous Mysteries ? JP2
#31
The Luminous Mysteries and the JPII Way of the Cross were devised for the same reason: ecumenism. Both contain purely Scriptural events without Mary so as to not offend our "separated brethren". If The Great could have gotten away with altering the other three mysteries I have no doubt he would have done so in a heartbeat. As it is, he ensured the Prots have at least one group they can use when they pray the Rosary. After all, Prots pray the Rosary all the time, don't they? 
Reply
#32
(04-22-2010, 02:50 PM)Magdalene Wrote: My dear young brother in Christ,
First of all let me direct you to the Apostolic Letter that Our Holy Father wrote on the Rosary. It is a beautiful reflective letter on this beautiful and contemplative means of prayer. And our Holy Father was no stranger to it!  While I know that there are those who reject the Luminous Mysteries or the Mysteries of Light, I LOVE them!  I pray a complete rosary daily--all 20 mysteries. 
I love them too. they add more spiritual insight into the rosary. Some of the so-called trads want to forget that at some point the rosary itself was new and probably resisted by the people of the time.
Reply
#33
Of course it was new at one point. But:

[Image: 1831.jpg]

This event, when Our Lady told Dominic to preach the Rosary under this specific form, even if it was invented at that exact event;
compared to a propogated suggestion that was far from an interpretation of a mystical apparition and more of an evangelical and ecumenical action. Well....

Even if you pray the "20-decade" rosary, understand that there seems to be a reason why people would be wary of increasing it. And it was far from mandatory on the part of Pope John Paul II to go along with the change. The 15-decade rosary is here to stay.

St. Louis de Montfort writes a lot of books on the subject of St. Dominic's preaching and mysticism on the 15 decade rosary. The Secret of the Rosary is probably a good one to read.
Reply
#34
(04-23-2010, 05:58 PM)sueb Wrote:
(04-22-2010, 02:50 PM)Magdalene Wrote: My dear young brother in Christ,
First of all let me direct you to the Apostolic Letter that Our Holy Father wrote on the Rosary. It is a beautiful reflective letter on this beautiful and contemplative means of prayer. And our Holy Father was no stranger to it!  While I know that there are those who reject the Luminous Mysteries or the Mysteries of Light, I LOVE them!  I pray a complete rosary daily--all 20 mysteries. 
I love them too. they add more spiritual insight into the rosary. Some of the so-called trads want to forget that at some point the rosary itself was new and probably resisted by the people of the time.


I've detected a certain haughtiness on the part of people that agree with JPII"s additional "mysteries" making the Rosary "more Christologica" etc.  It's a shame that Padre Pio prayed such a "lacking rosary" and Our Lady herself had to hawk such a Christologically deprived Rosary for so long until the culmination of God's plans, Pope John Paul II came along to "fix" everything.  The necessary implication drawn from a "complete" 20 decades is that the traditional 15-decade, well-balanced, Trinitarian Rosary is "incomplete." 

But had JPII lived longer, I suspect he would've added "the Salty Mysteries" to go with the "Luminous" mysteries. 

As it is, in the final analysis he fully succeeded in taking a devotion that unified people and created "options" (the ever-popular Vatican II-Tower of Babel-options)  to divide people.  Why the hell couldn't he leave well enough alone?
Reply
#35
(04-23-2010, 05:58 PM)sueb Wrote:
(04-22-2010, 02:50 PM)Magdalene Wrote: My dear young brother in Christ,
First of all let me direct you to the Apostolic Letter that Our Holy Father wrote on the Rosary. It is a beautiful reflective letter on this beautiful and contemplative means of prayer. And our Holy Father was no stranger to it!  While I know that there are those who reject the Luminous Mysteries or the Mysteries of Light, I LOVE them!  I pray a complete rosary daily--all 20 mysteries. 
I love them too. they add more spiritual insight into the rosary. Some of the so-called trads want to forget that at some point the rosary itself was new and probably resisted by the people of the time.
The point is firstly thy were to be only said for one year, now their already printed into the predominant rosary pamphlets etc. The modernists never give up ground given, and obedience is only when it suites them.
secondly, they may be great for personal meditation (in fact they probably are) but for the public life of the church, it was just another stunt and a another point of DIVISION., it was unnecessary  and the very definition of NOVELTY.
I wont say them publicly.
Reply
#36
n
[/quote]
I've detected a certain haughtiness on the part of people that agree with JPII"s additional "mysteries" making the Rosary "more Christologica" etc.  It's a shame that Padre Pio prayed such a "lacking rosary" and Our Lady herself had to hawk such a Christologically deprived Rosary for so long until the culmination of God's plans, Pope John Paul II came along to "fix" everything.   The necessary implication drawn from a "complete" 20 decades is that the traditional 15-decade, well-balanced, Trinitarian Rosary is "incomplete."  But had JPII lived longer, I suspect he would've added "the Salty Mysteries" to go with the "Luminous" mysteries.  As it is, in the final analysis he fully succeeded in taking a devotion that unified people and created "options" (the ever-popular Vatican II-Tower of Babel-options)  to divide people.   Why the hell couldn't he leave well enough alone?
[/quote]

I suppose I could just as easily say that I detect a certain haughtiness on the part of people who say they would NEVER do anything that Pope John Paul II approved of; perish the thought!  And you know what, that is fine.  Why must one side always be 'right'?  If you do not want to pray the new mysteries, you do not have to. You do not even 'have' to pray the rosary for that matter, unless you prefer doing as Our Lady has asked us to do. I certainly cannot say I know better or more than PJII or that I am closer to Our Lady than he.  We both made our St. Louis de Montfort total consecration and I have a religious vow with an Order of unlimited consecration...but that does not make me better than anyone else. It just makes me her instrument as far as possible with this cracked pot. I suspect at the bottom of all this a great dislike of Ven. PJPII more than anything else. As far as the rosary being given in its complete form or a 15 decade form to St. Dominic...there was development there too. That was not the end nor the beginning of the rosary.  Bl. Alan de la Roche had a completing mission with this as well and there was a form of prayer on beads before the time of St. Dominic as well.  I know it is the minority opinion here that Ven. JPII could do anything right or that there could be anything worthwhile in the last 45 years but that is opinion only.  We can each have our own without the name calling and the 'I am better than you' attitude or that one knows more than the other or is holier or above all the tower of babel modernism.  You know there may well be modernists that get to heaven before of us! Because their love and charity are greater than ours. Because they love God more than we do, because they are kind and worship as best as they know how to do and are still under the Holy Father in that worship. And Our Lady is mentioned in the Mysteries of Light. Our Lord worked His first public miracle at the mediation and request of Our Lady at the wedding feast of Cana. Our Lady is always present in some way in each and every mystery of the rosary--whether you pray 15 or 20 of them.  And Padre Pio was a most obedient and faithful son of the Church and of the Holy Father. I guess he even slapped someone one time for dissing the bishop even though the bishop was in the wrong. Personally, I think the Saint would have prayed the new mysteries. You know he and Karol Woytila knew each other and the Pope asked the Saint to intercede for his dying friend and that friend was cured.  I know you would not ever hear St. Pio bad-mouthing the Pope. Are we better than him? Ave Maria!
Reply
#37
I was in a Catholic homeschooling support group that ended up splitting over this.  Once a month, on a Thursday, the moms had a meeting and we would pray the Rosary together.  There were some trad women in the group who weren't comfortable praying the Luminous mysteries.  For a while we prayed the Joyful mysteries, but then some of the women decided that this was being disloyal to the Pope and basically kicked the trad women out.  I had never even been to a TLM when this happened, but thought it unjust treatment of the trads.  Some of us sympathized with them and kept associating with them, but the homeschooling group no longer functioned as a whole.

Something is very wrong when we make praying or not praying these mysteries some sort of test of faith in which we prove that we are trad enough or loyal enough.
Reply
#38
(04-23-2010, 08:11 PM)Magdalene Wrote: I suppose I could just as easily say that I detect a certain haughtiness on the part of people who say they would NEVER do anything that Pope John Paul II approved of; perish the thought! 

Here we run into the first problem.  Is a "complete Rosary" a traditional 15 decade rosary or a new 20 decade rosary?  The problem with JPII wasn't doing what he allowed, the problem is that he allowed virtually anything and everything. 

Quote: And you know what, that is fine.  Why must one side always be 'right'?  If you do not want to pray the new mysteries, you do not have to. You do not even 'have' to pray the rosary for that matter, unless you prefer doing as Our Lady has asked us to do.

One should always strive to be "right."  What kind of good is being wrong excepted to be corrected and become right?  The problem is, now people who would like to pray the Rosary together have a difference where there was none before.  Say a rosary group prays daily some conservative and some traditional, a big fight breaks out over those who for logical reasons do not think the Rosary is improved but rather diminished by the "Luminous" mysteries. 




Quote: I certainly cannot say I know better or more than PJII or that I am closer to Our Lady than he. 

I have doubts about his formation, knowledge and his devotion.  It could have all been windowdressing considering the destruction he allowed to continue under his watch. 

Quote:  We both made our St. Louis de Montfort total consecration and I have a religious vow with an Order of unlimited consecration...but that does not make me better than anyone else. It just makes me her instrument as far as possible with this cracked pot.
 

He also took an anti-modernist vow and accepted the job of being Pope.  His prime duty was to protecte the deposit of faith.  By the standards expressed by St. Pius X in "Pascendi" he failed in his duty. 

Quote: I suspect at the bottom of all this a great dislike of Ven. PJPII more than anything else.

As a person or as a Pope?  I'm neutral to him as a person since I didn't know him. In charity I pray for mercy for his soul.  I know his record as Pope,  I've watched him treat Our Lord disrespectfully in the name of "modern liturgy." Treating God like that?  Why should I trust his Marian devotion? 

Quote: As far as the rosary being given in its complete form or a 15 decade form to St. Dominic...there was development there too. That was not the end nor the beginning of the rosary.  Bl. Alan de la Roche had a completing mission with this as well and there was a form of prayer on beads before the time of St. Dominic as well. 

There are numerous chaplets on beads of which the Rosary is one.  But there was never to my knowledge an accompanying trashing of the actual form of a venerable devotion prior to JPII's insensitive, unwarranted and unreasonable criticisms of the Rosary as surrounded by "sweet talk" language as they were.  Our Lady asked for the Rosary at Fatima and added the decade prayer, she didn't say, 'it's lacking, and I think we should put this in to fill in the gaps." 

Quote:  I know it is the minority opinion here that Ven. JPII could do anything right or that there could be anything worthwhile in the last 45 years but that is opinion only. 

It's more than opinion, there is empirical evidence to back up that position. 

Quote: We can each have our own without the name calling and the 'I am better than you' attitude or that one knows more than the other or is holier or above all the tower of babel modernism. 

We can each have our own IS the tower of Babel mentality.  Now we can't even pray the Rosary together without having to deal with "options" that are disagreed about on reason and principle. 

Quote:  You know there may well be modernists that get to heaven before of us! Because their love and charity are greater than ours. Because they love God more than we do, because they are kind and worship as best as they know how to do and are still under the Holy Father in that worship.

If they love God more than they love their modernism, they won't stay modernists.  Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies.  It's a heresy because it prevents people from knowing the truth and precludes them from getting to Heaven.  St. Pius X called them "enemies of the Church."

Quote: And Our Lady is mentioned in the Mysteries of Light. Our Lord worked His first public miracle at the mediation and request of Our Lady at the wedding feast of Cana.

And what does that have to do with "luminosity?"  I don't even understand how a phenomenologist like JPII would avoid "relational" terms when the traditional mysteries are "Joyful" "Sorrowful" and "Glorious"  why "Luminous"?  Bugnini's suggestion to Paul VI for "Hopeful" mysteries makes more sense than "Luminous." 

Quote: Our Lady is always present in some way in each and every mystery of the rosary--whether you pray 15 or 20 of them.  And Padre Pio was a most obedient and faithful son of the Church and of the Holy Father. I guess he even slapped someone one time for dissing the bishop even though the bishop was in the wrong. Personally, I think the Saint would have prayed the new mysteries. You know he and Karol Woytila knew each other and the Pope asked the Saint to intercede for his dying friend and that friend was cured.  I know you would not ever hear St. Pio bad-mouthing the Pope. Are we better than him? Ave Maria![/i]

Padre Pio was also blessed by Archbishop LeFebvre even though LeFebvre asked for Padre Pio's blessing.  Padre Pio insisted that he get a blessing from the bishop.  Slapping someone for testifying to the truth would be wrong on Padre Pio's part unless there was something else in the mix, perhaps calumny or detraction etc.  And I doubt LeFebvre would have approved of changing the Rosary in the way JPII did.

[Image: padrepio_kissing_abs_ring.jpg]

Reply
#39
I vote for The Culinary Mysteries :eats:

Loaves and Fishes
Wine Making
Net full o' fish
etc.

Reply
#40
The Bloominist mysteries?
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)