The Luminous Mysteries ? JP2
#51
As much as I do not always like to add heat to the fire, I am in agreement with Gerard.

Being a convert I learned most about the Rosary from reading Dominican writings and the writings of St. Louis de Montfort. It is very difficult for one to accept the "new mysteries" if they first met the rosary through reading St. Louis de Montfort's "The Secret of the Rosary." It is not merely a meditation tool (even if many would say it is a very important and significant meditation tool). I cannot see good reason to change it and the change made by Pope John Paul II was far from mandatory. Not only when Our Lady appeared to St. Dominic but when any of her apparitions spoke of the rosary she, spoke of the fifteen decade rosary as we know it. Sure, additions were made such as the "Oh My Jesus" prayer; but that was a request by Our Lady of Fatima herself. These new mysteries do not seem to have those credentials to them so it still seems somehow wrong.

I am not offended if someone prays the Luminous mysteries. I think they make a very good chaplet. But to many it would be like adding a Joseph to the Our Lady of Czestochowa Icon. Something that has been the way it has always been for as long as we have known it, possibly written by St. Luke himself, but merely added on just to make it more "complete" and have a "new message" tacked on? It is certainly a true message: devotion to St. Joseph and his closeness to Mary and Christ. But does it belong there?
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#52
(04-24-2010, 10:11 AM)Gerard Wrote: For years we had tabernacles hidden from view in Churches in order to destroy reverent behavior,  now we have multiple expositions of the Blessed Sacrament in round Churches that make it impossible to navigate through the Church without either odd and sudden stops to genuflect or a gradual eroding of the willingness to genuflect.  It works either way, through deprivation or excess. 



http://www.christianorder.com/features/f...may03.html
Such a reactionary! This has NOTHING to do with the Rosary. Prayers are never wrong, even in the rosary. how can you possibly object to prayers?
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#53
(04-24-2010, 12:54 PM)sueb Wrote: Such a reactionary! This has NOTHING to do with the Rosary. Prayers are never wrong, even in the rosary. how can you possibly object to prayers?


That was an example of a broader principle which is being used to undermine the rosary in the same way a "piling on" is being used to undermine reverence for the Eucharist.  As the article I linked points to, the additional mysteries destroy or undermine much of the meaning within the structure of the traditional rosary. 

And prayers do have a structure and purpose to them.  You don't have a litany without a response.  You don't say grace before meals between each Hail Mary on the Rosary,
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#54
(04-23-2010, 08:58 PM)Gerard Wrote: Here we run into the first problem.  Is a "complete Rosary" a traditional 15 decade rosary or a new 20 decade rosary?   The problem with JPII wasn't doing what he allowed, the problem is that he allowed virtually anything and everything. 

Including the TLM. He wasn't any king of ..IST, he was Catholic = universal, foer everyone, not just for a very small group.

Still he was the pope, the vicar of Jesus Christ,  and for Catholics Uni Petrus ibi ecclesia est.
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#55
(04-24-2010, 01:12 PM)glgas Wrote:
(04-23-2010, 08:58 PM)Gerard Wrote: Here we run into the first problem.  Is a "complete Rosary" a traditional 15 decade rosary or a new 20 decade rosary?   The problem with JPII wasn't doing what he allowed, the problem is that he allowed virtually anything and everything. 

Including the TLM. He wasn't any king of ..IST, he was Catholic = universal, foer everyone, not just for a very small group.

Still he was the pope, the vicar of Jesus Christ,  and for Catholics Uni Petrus ibi ecclesia est.


No. He what he allowed was for bishops to continue to illegally suppress the TLM.  Pope Benedict clarified that it was never legally abrogated.  JPII supressed that info. 
He was definitely Pope.  A very bad Pope.  We have them on occasion.
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#56
John Paul II was a terrible, terrible pope by any catholic standards. Period.

It's not up to us to judge whether he was a heretic or not but we can safely say that his pontificate was one of the most disastrous and insidious the Church has ever witnessed. Friends, it was more than 20 years of ignomy, shame, faithlessness and parody of our holy catholic religion. Under his watch the enemies of the Church triumphed and we could only witness her downfall and (seemingly) utter destruction.

These "Luminous Mysteries" have his stamp of approval which is, basically, enough reason for any serious catholic to reject them.
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#57
(04-24-2010, 07:26 AM)glgas Wrote: Since world is world people people want to change it. This is also commandment from God:

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.

The popes constantly added thing to the Holy Liturgy too, the Kalendar constantly changed.

John Paul II wanted to put your attention to the actions of Jesus:

- Jesus subdued himself to a new rite, the baptism of John the Baptist

- Jesus made miracles out of pity for people, even in unnecessary subject, like the wine on a wedding

- Jesus preferred the poor against the elite

- Jesus revealed his glory to his inner circle only, before the Passion, from the rest like us He requires the faith

- Jesus wanted to stay among us through The Eucharist, and by this mystery He wants to reach everybody

We all should meditate on this mysteries.

The Luminous Mysteries are good in themselves.  They all are about Jesus, after all.  But I don't like adding them to Rosary as then Mary's Psalter has more Aves than David's Psalter has Psalms.  Does that not bother you?

I think the Luminous Mysteries are better prayed as a separate chaplet, with the Rosary prayed as it has been for many, many years, with 150 Aves.  The chaplet can be prayed on any rosary.


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#58
Gerard,

Thanks very much for that link.  I won't be praying the luminous mysteries anymore (only did anyway on Thursdays before Mass when our Rosary leader used them), and the next time someone asks me what's wrong with them, I'll have some simple, clear answers:

1. Our Lady of Fatima, in her First Saturday promise, asked us to mediate on the fifteen mysteries.

2. Numerous popes, up to and including Paul VI, have stressed the importance of the triune nature of the three sets of mysteries.

3. The document which introduces the new mysteries also suggests several other innovations, all of which seem to lessen the focus on Mary---while disregarding the Fatima prayer entirely.

4. The document suggests that the Rosary is "simply a method of contemplation," akin to that used in non-Catholic spiritual traditions, and downplays (if not actually rejecting) its supernatural origin and its value as a spiritual weapon.

Those arguments may not carry weight with just anyone, but they will with traditionalists I know, who are certainly devoted to Mary and reject the exact same kind of non-organic shuffling that happened to the Mass.  When they consider a "rosary" that could be an hour long, with Scripture readings and homilies added to each decade, extra words inserted into the center of the Ave, the highest emphasis put on the Gloria, and the Fatima prayer replaced with who-knows-what locally-relevant concluding prayer, they're bound to shudder.
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#59
The simple fact is that the Rosary was given by Our Lady to St. Dominic and it has been perfect as part of our tradition for centuries. This is not just about Pope John Paul II. I would have had a problem with ANY Pope that changed the Rosary, whether it was John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII, or Benedict XVI. No Pope is allowed to change a devotion and gift from heaven.

As far as the slap in the face and insult towards heaven that Pope John Paul II was implying by suggesting that the rosary was lacking and not  Christological enough, Pope Paul VI had this to say:

"The Rosary is the compendium of the entire Gospel" (Pope Paul VI quoting Pope Pius XII).
http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/rosary/

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#60
(04-23-2010, 08:40 PM)JayneK Wrote: Something is very wrong when we make praying or not praying these mysteries some sort of test of faith in which we prove that we are trad enough or loyal enough.

Who caused the division? It was Pope John Paul II himself. This is what happens when the Pope who is supposed to be the uniter of Catholics and guardian of tradition and the faith, steps outside of his authority and invents something completely new. No Pope has the authority to invent new doctrines, creeds, or dogmas.

Pope John Paul II set up division through his misguided novelty. He also furthered the error of Papal idolatry. The new mysteries caused Catholics to fall into the trap of idolatry since ignorant Catholics felt that they must accept the mysteries solely on the grounds that the mysteries came from the Pope and it would be disobedience to reject it. These Catholics unfortunately had no clue about the history of the Rosary or the limits of Papal power and infallibility.
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