The Luminous Mysteries ? JP2
#61
(04-24-2010, 05:20 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(04-23-2010, 08:40 PM)JayneK Wrote: Something is very wrong when we make praying or not praying these mysteries some sort of test of faith in which we prove that we are trad enough or loyal enough.

Who caused the division? It was Pope John Paul II himself. This is what happens when the Pope who is supposed to be the uniter of Catholics and guardian of tradition and the faith, steps outside of his authority and invents something completely new. No Pope has the authority to invent new doctrines, creeds, or dogmas.

Pope John Paul II set up division through his misguided novelty. He also furthered the error of Papal idolatry. The new mysteries caused Catholics to fall into the trap of idolatry since ignorant Catholics felt that they must accept the mysteries solely on the grounds that the mysteries came from the Pope and it would be disobedience to reject it. These Catholics unfortunately had no clue about the history of the Rosary or the limits of Papal power and infallibility.
There are no new doctrines, creeds or dogmas in the Luminous Mysteries.  As a chaplet, there would be no problem with them at all.  They are beautiful, uplifting meditations.  Yes, I agree that it was imprudent to tamper with the traditional structure of the Rosary, but this is not at the level of teaching false doctrine.

Pope John Paul II brought both strengths and weaknesses to his papacy, as have all the holders of the office.  I am distressed by posts that I see which write of him disrespectfully. 
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#62
(04-24-2010, 04:58 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: As far as the slap in the face and insult towards heaven that Pope John Paul II was implying by suggesting that the rosary was lacking and not  Christological enough, Pope Paul VI had this to say:

"The Rosary is the compendium of the entire Gospel" (Pope Paul VI quoting Pope Pius XII).
http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/rosary/

Pope John Paul the clown changed the Rosary in part to make it more ecumenical for Protestants. To think that the man that is supposed to be in charge of the Church and guard its tradition changes a gift from the Holy Mother just to make heretics happy makes me seriously ill. Worst Pope ever.
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#63
(04-24-2010, 05:37 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-24-2010, 05:20 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(04-23-2010, 08:40 PM)JayneK Wrote: Something is very wrong when we make praying or not praying these mysteries some sort of test of faith in which we prove that we are trad enough or loyal enough.

Who caused the division? It was Pope John Paul II himself. This is what happens when the Pope who is supposed to be the uniter of Catholics and guardian of tradition and the faith, steps outside of his authority and invents something completely new. No Pope has the authority to invent new doctrines, creeds, or dogmas.

Pope John Paul II set up division through his misguided novelty. He also furthered the error of Papal idolatry. The new mysteries caused Catholics to fall into the trap of idolatry since ignorant Catholics felt that they must accept the mysteries solely on the grounds that the mysteries came from the Pope and it would be disobedience to reject it. These Catholics unfortunately had no clue about the history of the Rosary or the limits of Papal power and infallibility.
There are no new doctrines, creeds or dogmas in the Luminous Mysteries.  As a chaplet, there would be no problem with them at all.  They are beautiful, uplifting meditations.  Yes, I agree that it was imprudent to tamper with the traditional structure of the Rosary, but this is not at the level of teaching false doctrine.

Pope John Paul II brought both strengths and weaknesses to his papacy, as have all the holders of the office.  I am distressed by posts that I see which write of him disrespectfully. 

But Jayne thats just the thing. He could have just made it a chaplet but he had to dink around with the Rosary, nothing was above novelty for him.
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#64
(04-24-2010, 05:53 PM)Baskerville Wrote: Pope John Paul the clown changed the Rosary in part to make it more ecumenical for Protestants. To think that the man that is supposed to be in charge of the Church and guard its tradition changes a gift from the Holy Mother just to make heretics happy makes me seriously ill. Worst Pope ever.
It wasn't to make heretics happy; it was to evangelize them.  He was trying to make Catholicism more accessible and understandable to Protestants in order to remove the barriers that keep them out of the Catholic Church.  In hindsight, messing with the Rosary was probably not a good way to do this, but there is no reason to think that he had a bad motive.  Getting Protestants to return to the Catholic Church is a good goal. 

Your comment about him being the worst pope ever makes me wonder about how much Church history you have studied.
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#65
(04-24-2010, 06:26 PM)JayneK Wrote: It wasn't to make heretics happy; it was to evangelize them.  He was trying to make Catholicism more accessible and understandable to Protestants in order to remove the barriers that keep them out of the Catholic Church.  In hindsight, messing with the Rosary was probably not a good way to do this, but there is no reason to think that he had a bad motive.  Getting Protestants to return to the Catholic Church is a good goal. 

And since the exact same strategy worked so well for the Mass, why not apply it to the Rosary?
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#66
(04-24-2010, 05:37 PM)JayneK Wrote: There are no new doctrines, creeds or dogmas in the Luminous Mysteries.  As a chaplet, there would be no problem with them at all.

I didn't mean to imply that the Luminous mysteries were new doctrines, but that they were just a novelty. I stated that Popes cannot create new doctrines as a way of contrasting thier actual roles in protectors of the faith. In that regard, I believe John Paul II erred in that he felt the need for constant novelty and updating for our times.
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#67
(04-24-2010, 06:26 PM)JayneK Wrote: Your comment about him being the worst pope ever makes me wonder about how much Church history you have studied.

Its one of my hobbies and though there were Popes who were moraly terrible the faith remained intact they never attacked the faith and tried to change it with such reckless abandon as JPII did. Name me a Pope in history who kissed the koran asked St John The Baptist to Bless the satanic religion of Islam called two masonic inspired Assisi meetings and called voodoo a great religion. John Paul II was the worst Pope in history he would fit right in with the anti Popes of the Arian Crisis.
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#68
(04-24-2010, 06:31 PM)Mhoram Wrote:
(04-24-2010, 06:26 PM)JayneK Wrote: It wasn't to make heretics happy; it was to evangelize them.  He was trying to make Catholicism more accessible and understandable to Protestants in order to remove the barriers that keep them out of the Catholic Church.  In hindsight, messing with the Rosary was probably not a good way to do this, but there is no reason to think that he had a bad motive.  Getting Protestants to return to the Catholic Church is a good goal. 

And since the exact same strategy worked so well for the Mass, why not apply it to the Rosary?

:laughing:

Exactly. Well we've made the Mass a Protestant communion service might as well change the Rosary too.
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#69
(04-24-2010, 06:26 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-24-2010, 05:53 PM)Baskerville Wrote: Pope John Paul the clown changed the Rosary in part to make it more ecumenical for Protestants. To think that the man that is supposed to be in charge of the Church and guard its tradition changes a gift from the Holy Mother just to make heretics happy makes me seriously ill. Worst Pope ever.
It wasn't to make heretics happy; it was to evangelize them.  He was trying to make Catholicism more accessible and understandable to Protestants in order to remove the barriers that keep them out of the Catholic Church...

You don't save a drowning man by jumping into the tumultuous ocean waves with him..You throw him a line from the safety of the shore.

Pandering to Prots and watering down our faith won't convert them...It just scandalizes Catholics.
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#70
(04-24-2010, 06:31 PM)Mhoram Wrote:
(04-24-2010, 06:26 PM)JayneK Wrote: It wasn't to make heretics happy; it was to evangelize them.  He was trying to make Catholicism more accessible and understandable to Protestants in order to remove the barriers that keep them out of the Catholic Church.  In hindsight, messing with the Rosary was probably not a good way to do this, but there is no reason to think that he had a bad motive.  Getting Protestants to return to the Catholic Church is a good goal. 

And since the exact same strategy worked so well for the Mass, why not apply it to the Rosary?
To some extent it did work for the Mass.  That was my personal experience.

I was born and raised Jewish and became a fundamentalist Protestant when I was 16.  In my early 20's I went to a Catholic Mass with friend and was eventually drawn by the power of the Mass into the Church.  I had belonged to a very anti-Catholic group and I had been taught that Catholics were not Christians.  It was obvious to me from the Mass that this was not true.  It very well may not have been so obvious in the TLM.  I probably would have been distracted by all the references to the Mary and the Saints.  Many of the things that I like about the TLM are things that I came to appreciate after years of being Catholic.  It is likely that they would have overwhelmed and confused me if I had encountered them when I was a Protestant. 

I have met other converts from Protestantism with similar experiences.  The Novus Ordo Mass really has helped some people into the Church. 
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