Prayer for the baptism of aborted babies
#21
The whole thing is tied up with original sin. Is the Stain of Original sin enough to keep one out of heaven? The Church has dogmatically affirm this to be true, ipso facto the poor children do not see heaven. I too lost a child and this is hard truth, but The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, Praise be the Lord...end of debate. We all want there to be a different answer, but Gods ways are not our ways, and His reasoning is not ours. The horror of abortion is that it kills twice. The horror of original sin is that children lost with out baptism are beyond human hope of salvation. In the end the only answer well get to this one is from God himself if we make it to Heaven.
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#22
Petertherock Wrote:I knew apparitions were never doctrine but I thought limbo was. I guess the modernists can change everything...

Limbo is not a doctrine, and to make a note of this point does not make one a modernist.


Quote:I am sure JPII would have said Purgatory is optional if he could get away with it.

Do you really believe this or are you just making a jab at the man? If so, can you provide any evidence of John Paul (of happy memory) holding such a belief?
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#23
(04-23-2010, 07:49 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(04-23-2010, 02:39 AM)JamieF Wrote: Original sin infects the soul from the moment of conception - all babies who die before baptism go to limbo - the upper level of hell.  They have no hope of salvation.
This is a hard but necessary truth.
It is not a necessary truth.  The Church never declared it as doctrine.  Anyone who thinks otherwise should produce the Church teaching that supports his position.  There is no point in calling people modernists.
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#24
(04-23-2010, 07:59 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: The whole thing is tied up with original sin. Is the Stain of Original sin enough to keep one out of heaven? The Church has dogmatically affirm this to be true, ipso facto the poor children do not see heaven. I too lost a child and this is hard truth, but The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, Praise be the Lord...end of debate. We all want there to be a different answer, but Gods ways are not our ways, and His reasoning is not ours. The horror of abortion is that it kills twice. The horror of original sin is that children lost with out baptism are beyond human hope of salvation. In the end the only answer well get to this one is from God himself if we make it to Heaven.

I'm very sorry for your loss, but it just cannot be known what God will do.  The Church has NOT dogmatically proclaimed that it is impossible for an unbaptized infant to go to heaven.  The only thing we can know is that baptism is ordinarily necessary.  Is it possible that God will allow unbaptized infants to be kept out of heaven?  Sure, it's possible, we don't know.  It is also possible that God makes another way possible for them since they had no other chance.  To suggest that no other way is possible is to bind God's hands, not permitting him to work outside of the law he made for us.  We are bound by his law; he is not.  Fortunately, children who die before baptism are not beyond human hope of salvation, and I am very sorry for you, both because I can't imagine how unbelievably hard it must be to despair of your own child's salvation, and also because you suffer such despair needlessly.  You can't possibly know that God definitively refuses to make a way possible, and since you can't know that, there is always still hope.  You're Ruthenian.  What is the authentic Byzantine tradition on this?
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#25
Even in some good Moral and Sacramental Theology books from the pre conciliar era, some theologians of unimpeachable orthodoxy held out hope for the salvation of unbaptized infants, especially to those who were the offspring of devout Christian parents. I believe that the book Outline of Moral Theology by Francis O'Connell considers this a common opinion(the book was in print from Roger McCaffrey's Roman Catholic Books imprint; I don't know if it still is).

Fr. Malachi Martin penned this prayer sometime in the 1970's. I try to say it daily:

"Lord Jesus, through the hands of Your Immaculate Mother, I offer you all my thoughts, words and actions today for all of the intentions of Your Most Sacred Heart. I especially offer you all of the acts of faith in You, and in Your Love, which I perform in order to obtain from Your Sacred Heart the grace of baptism for all of the innocent babies who will be murdered this day by abortion. Because their own fathers and mothers will violently refuse them life, and thus refuse to stand before Thee as guarantors of their babies faith in you, accept me as the spiritual father/mother of those babies. And accept my faith as a guarantee of these babies desire to be with You forever. Thus having been killed most cruelly, they may be admitted into your presence as sinless martyrs attesting to the truth of your love and your salvation. I ask this for Your Holy Name's sake. Amen."

Any errors in grammar are mine, not Fr. Martin's. I recite from memory; I no longer know what happened to the printed text I used to have.
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#26
(04-23-2010, 08:08 PM)Credo Wrote: John Paul (of happy memory)

The only happy memory of JPII is when Benedict XVI became the next Pope.

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#27
(04-24-2010, 01:16 PM)Petertherock Wrote:
(04-23-2010, 08:08 PM)Credo Wrote: John Paul (of happy memory)

The only happy memory of JPII is when Benedict XVI became the next Pope.

That's an uncalled-for and uncharitable comment and has nothing to do with the thread topic of Limbo. 
I have my own complaints about some things John Paul II did and I oppose his being canonized on the fast track, but I also know that he brought many people to Christ and inspired many who were already Christian.  You should hope to do as much good in your life as he did in his.  Many do have happy memories of him.  Worry about who will have happy memories of you five years after you die and let God judge John Paul as He will judge us all.





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#28
(04-23-2010, 07:56 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: Where ever he is, I trust that Nicholas Elias is perfectly happy.  :)  :pray2:

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/200704...Limbo.html

Thank you, Jaca.  I am sure that is true, whether he is in Heaven or Limbo.  The Church now says that Limbo is an outdated hypothesis about the fate of unbaptized babies, meaning Nicholas Elias is in Heaven so I accept that just as I formerly accepted that he was in Limbo.
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#29
(04-24-2010, 01:57 PM)i.p.i. Wrote:  I have my own complaints about some things John Paul II did and I oppose his being canonized on the fast track, but I also know that he brought many people to Christ and inspired many who were already Christian.  You should hope to do as much good in your life as he did in his.  Many do have happy memories of him.  Worry about who will have happy memories of you five years after you die and let God judge John Paul as He will judge us all.


:clap: :clap: :clap:
Well put, thank you.
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#30
(04-23-2010, 08:17 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-23-2010, 07:49 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote:
(04-23-2010, 02:39 AM)JamieF Wrote: Original sin infects the soul from the moment of conception - all babies who die before baptism go to limbo - the upper level of hell.  They have no hope of salvation.
This is a hard but necessary truth.
It is not a necessary truth.  The Church never declared it as doctrine.  Anyone who thinks otherwise should produce the Church teaching that supports his position.  There is no point in calling people modernists.

People who point out that Limbo has never been defined, ignore the fact that it is de fide that infants who die unbaptised are deprived of the Beatific Vision.

Getting rid of Limbo does not mean they would be in Heaven, it means they would be  suffering in Hell.

Heaven was never an option.
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