Second Vatican Council 4th session
#1
I'm doing some personal research for myself and I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a list of the  Cardinals and Bishops that voted against the following documents at the VII Council in late 1965.

1. Declaration of Non-Christian Religions- Solemn Voting, 88 against
2. Declaration of Religious Liberty- Solemn Voting, 70 against
3. Degree on Ecumenism- Solemn Voting 11 against

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#2
(04-26-2010, 01:44 PM)crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote: I'm doing some personal research for myself and I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a list of the  Cardinals and Bishops that voted against the following documents at the VII Council in late 1965.

1. Declaration of Non-Christian Religions- Solemn Voting, 88 against
2. Declaration of Religious Liberty- Solemn Voting, 70 against
3. Degree on Ecumenism- Solemn Voting 11 against

I'm assuming Arcbishop Lefebvre voted against ALL 16 Documents, but what other Bishops/Cardinals are on record for voting against most of the other decrees??

That's a bad assumption.  Archbishop Lefebvre signed ALL 16 documents of the Council.  He voted against Dignitatis Humanae, but then signed it after it was approved (indicating his desire to accept what the Church had passed).  To my knowledge, he voted for all the others.
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#3
Here's the vote totals for the documents (Yes-No) and the percent of bishops voting for each document [%].

Constitutions:
Dei Verbum (On Divine Revelation): 2344-6 [99.74%]
Lumen Gentium (On the Church) : 2151-5 [99.77%]
Gaudium et Spes (On the Church in the Modern World): 2307-75 [96.85%]
Sacrosanctum Concilium (On the Sacred Liturgy): 2147-4 [99.81%]

Decrees:
Ad Gentes (On Missionary Activity of the Church): 2394-5 [99.79%]
Apostolicam Actuositatem (On the Apostolate of the Laity): 2340-2 [99.91%]
Christus Dominus (On the Pastoral Office of Bishops): 2319-2 [99.91%]
Inter Mirifica (On the Media of Social Communications): 1960-164 [92.28%]
Optatem Totius (On Priestly Training): 2318-3 [99.87%]
Orientalium Ecclesiam (On the Eastern Catholic Churches): 2210-39 [98.27%]
Perfectae Caritatis (On the Adaption and Renewal of Religious Life): 2321-4 [99.82%]
Presbtyerorum Ordinis (On the Ministry and Life of Priests): 2390-4 [99.83%]
Unitatis Redintegratio (On Ecumenism): 2137-11 [99.49%]

Declarations:
Dignitatis Humanae (On Religious Liberty): 2308-70 [97.06%]
Gravissimum Educationis (On Christian Education): 2290-35 [98.49%]
Nostra Aetate (On the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions): 2221-88 [96.19%]

And for some perspective:

Vote on Papal Infallibility section of Pastor Aeternus (Vatican I Constitution on the Church): 451-88-61 [75.17%]

61 bishops voted for the infallibility section to be amended.  Even if they were included in the "For" group, that's still only 85% of the bishops agreeing with the document, lower than any of the documents of Vatican II (although to be fair, Dei Filius from Vatican I garnered 100% acceptance at its final vote which is higher than any Vatican II document).  Remarkably, 60 of the bishops who voted "No" to infallibility walked out of the Council to avoid casting their vote for the final Constitution (including all the Eastern Rite bishops).  It ultimately passed 533-2.

What's the point:  The point is that all those bishops who voted "No" to infallibility (or even refused to vote), ultimately accepted the Conciliar decree.  Accepting the document after its passed is far more important than voting against it.  So if Arcbishop Lefebvre is going to be "rewarded" for his actions at the Council, then we should look at what he did at the Council.  He was surely in the conservative camp, but he ultimately accepted any document he might have voted against.
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#4
That is all well and good, but I'm looking for specific NAMES of Bishops who were in the conservative camp at the council... We know who some were already, but I was wondering how many there were in total!!

The only Cardinals I can think of besides Lefebvre were:
Ottaviani
Bacci
Siri
Oddi
McIntyre
Spellman
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#5
They were all liberals in my opinion because all of them immediatedly started changing things , only Lefbrve saw he had made a mistake and changed directions. To show how sick and delusional many of these bishops and their advisors were ( Cardinal Keeler was a advisor to the Harrisburg Bishop at Vatican 2 and many of the bishops that came after the council were at Vatican 2 as advisors to their bishops)  its 45 years after the council ended, apostasy is rampant in the church , priests and sisters have left in droves, Catholic schools are closing and where is a Catholic university today? And yet most of these senile bishops still think Vatican 2 was a success not to mention the phony spins the Popes have put on this disaster, the Springtime of Vatican 2 phrase comes to mind.
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#6
Okay, so they  were all liberals then...?? Okay, I think understand what you are saying... They were once Conservative, but then after everyone went along with the Vatican II changes they became liberal!!  These labels shouldn't apply here... IMHO, you are either for Tradition and the One True Mass or you are against it!
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#7
(04-26-2010, 04:48 PM)crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote: That is all well and good, but I'm looking for specific NAMES of Bishops who were in the conservative camp at the council... We know who some were already, but I was wondering how many there were in total!!

The only Cardinals I can think of besides Lefebvre were:
Ottaviani
Bacci
Siri
Oddi
McIntyre
Spellman

Did you miss something?  They all approved the documents!
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#8
(04-26-2010, 05:50 PM)salus Wrote: They were all liberals in my opinion because all of them immediatedly started changing things , only Lefbrve saw he had made a mistake and changed directions. To show how sick and delusional many of these bishops and their advisors were ( Cardinal Keeler was a advisor to the Harrisburg Bishop at Vatican 2 and many of the bishops that came after the council were at Vatican 2 as advisors to their bishops)  its 45 years after the council ended, apostasy is rampant in the church , priests and sisters have left in droves, Catholic schools are closing and where is a Catholic university today? And yet most of these senile bishops still think Vatican 2 was a success not to mention the phony spins the Popes have put on this disaster, the Springtime of Vatican 2 phrase comes to mind.

As a matter of fact there was a real rampant apostasy after the Humanae Vitae, what many priests and sisters judged inappropriate, but in the beginning of the secenties in went back to the previous average, about 25% of the priests.

In contrast the 50% of the priests ordained by the SSPX left the Fraternity.

The number of those who left the Church 'to right', so as a protest of the Liturgical reform is minuscule. Today there are 400,000 priests, 500 some SSPX priest somewhat less to the right of SSPX.

Naturaly the Humanae Vitae as reason is only one of many, but the 10,000 priest in the US and about 100,000 all over the world left the Churh to the left. About half of the them wanted to marry someone, the other half found the Church too strict in some issues, or may be there were just brick planted by the enemies of the Church, and only those were payed to stay who took over the seminaries and the Catholic universities.

And do not want to argue, that the Church is going to the perfect direction, but the liturgical reform did not resulted significant apostasy.
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#9
What the goalof your research jeremy? U writing a paper or is it personal satisfaction?
Sip
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#10
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