What is the Anglican Patrimony spoken of by Pope Benedict? Part I
#11
Palestrina is sublime.
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#12
(04-28-2010, 09:01 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Palestrina is sublime.

Amen to that, Auggie.  ;D
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#13
(04-28-2010, 08:58 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: Polyphony isn't Godforsaken.

I don't think it is inherently, but I imagine glgas was referring to the opinion of certain popes and bishops during the Late Middle Ages who thought polyphony had gotten carried away and strayed far from the liturgical ideal, making the Mass a showpiece, etc. Similar opinions were had about the pipe organ when it was first introduced.

And of course, not all polyphony is created equal. There were some pretty lame composers out there. Palestrina is somewhat unique among composers  of his time for sticking closely to the roots of plainchant and not using a lot of repetition.
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#14
(04-28-2010, 10:27 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(04-28-2010, 08:58 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: Polyphony isn't Godforsaken.

I don't think it is inherently, but I imagine glgas was referring to the opinion of certain popes and bishops during the Late Middle Ages who thought polyphony had gotten carried away and strayed far from the liturgical ideal, making the Mass a showpiece, etc. Similar opinions were had about the pipe organ when it was first introduced.

And of course, not all polyphony is created equal. There were some pretty lame composers out there. Palestrina is somewhat unique among composers  of his time for sticking closely to the roots of plainchant and not using a lot of repetition.

I love polyphony. As to composers HK where do you stand on William Byrd his Ave Verum Corpus is angelic.
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#15
(04-28-2010, 10:39 PM)Baskerville Wrote: I love polyphony. As to composers HK where do you stand on William Byrd his Ave Verum Corpus is angelic.

As an Anglophile, Thomas Tallis and William Byrd are two of my favourites. Even more than them, though, I like the somewhat earlier composers like Josquin des Prez and Ockeghem.

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#16
(04-28-2010, 11:01 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(04-28-2010, 10:39 PM)Baskerville Wrote: I love polyphony. As to composers HK where do you stand on William Byrd his Ave Verum Corpus is angelic.

As an Anglophile, Thomas Tallis and William Byrd are two of my favourites. Even more than them, though, I like the somewhat earlier composers like Josquin des Prez and Ockeghem.


Wow that was sublime. I too an an Anglophile like Tallis and Byrd I lean a little more towards Byrds side though I have heard of des Pez but never heard him except what you posted however I have never heard of Ockeghem at all.
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#17


Sorry for the thread necromancy. 

I came across this thread on accident, but I found the article linked by the OP interesting, as were the videos linked afterwards.  The video I linked above, from about the 12:35 mark, does a nice job of showing what Pope Benedict was probably thinking of in terms of Anglican Patrimony. 
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#18
When HK and Magister Musicae where here leading these types of discussions, I dropped a thought which I think is a real answer. With the returning of the Anglo-Catholics to the Roman Rite, after some time make them a separate Rite, The English Rite, and require all English vernacular Masses to conform to that Rite. No more American vernacular Masses with R&R, no more "show tunes" but real serious music which fits Worship of God. So say on Sunday in NYC one could go to Mass at St. John Fisher, English Rite Catholic Church, or to St. John the Baptist Latin Rite Catholic Church, one in English the other in Latin.

Before the USCCB wound it's tendrils into EWTN, that N.O.Mass was starting to be a reverent N.O. Mass and with a little more research and work would have been a good example of the N.O.Mass in Latin. The USCCB pressured them to stop it, because their tv channel was an epic failure. Then Mother Angelica was forced to sell because the USCCB was going to force her to give it to them, and make it banner ridden, happy clappy silliness. The problem then became the protestant convert were afraid of the USCCB and cowtowed to their every whim. Had Mother been left alone to run it, today the Mass would be a TLM.

The forces which are at work can only be Satanic.

tim
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#19
(10-08-2013, 09:28 AM)Tim Wrote: When HK and Magister Musicae where here leading these types of discussions, I dropped a thought which I think is a real answer. With the returning of the Anglo-Catholics to the Roman Rite, after some time make them a separate Rite, The English Rite, and require all English vernacular Masses to conform to that Rite. No more American vernacular Masses with R&R, no more "show tunes" but real serious music which fits Worship of God. So say on Sunday in NYC one could go to Mass at St. John Fisher, English Rite Catholic Church, or to St. John the Baptist Latin Rite Catholic Church, one in English the other in Latin.

Not a bad idea actually.  I think you will find in the long run that, as the Catholic population ages, there will be parishes that stay strong and those which do not in terms of attendance.  The ones that are growing in our diocese are the ones that do a decent job of liturgy, catechesis, etc. and the ones that are dying out (filled with aging hippies most of the time) are the ones that do not.  Fast forward 15-20 years and those same parishes will have no one left in them.  The Anglican ordinariate/use parishes serve to show people that you can have the vernacular and beauty/reverence, etc. all at the same time.  Those parishes that I know which have come into the Church via the Pastoral Provision or the Ordinariates are typically filled each Sunday with people who have never been Anglican at all.  They are simply faithful Catholics looking for beauty and sound teaching.  I saw the same thing when I went to visit a Ukrainian-Greek Catholic parish.  Half of the parishioners were not Eastern Rite by birth, they were former or current Latin Catholics looking for sanity. 

Quote:Before the USCCB wound it's tendrils into EWTN, that N.O.Mass was starting to be a reverent N.O. Mass and with a little more research and work would have been a good example of the N.O.Mass in Latin. The USCCB pressured them to stop it, because their tv channel was an epic failure. Then Mother Angelica was forced to sell because the USCCB was going to force her to give it to them, and make it banner ridden, happy clappy silliness. The problem then became the protestant convert were afraid of the USCCB and cowtowed to their every whim. Had Mother been left alone to run it, today the Mass would be a TLM.

The forces which are at work can only be Satanic.

tim

EWTN's history is indeed sad in that regard.  However, as compared to the norm, they certainly do a good job of celebrating the NO Mass.  In addition, many of the friars have gone out to seek training in the celebration of the TLM, which may bode well for the future.   
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#20
(04-28-2010, 11:01 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(04-28-2010, 10:39 PM)Baskerville Wrote: I love polyphony. As to composers HK where do you stand on William Byrd his Ave Verum Corpus is angelic.

As an Anglophile, Thomas Tallis and William Byrd are two of my favourites. Even more than them, though, I like the somewhat earlier composers like Josquin des Prez and Ockeghem.



Thanks HK, for the post & video. God Bless.
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