Ranking arguments against the NO
#41
(05-05-2010, 11:02 AM)JayneK Wrote: How can you know that?  How many people have been given a choice?  The Tridentine Mass was suppressed.  Countless people left the Church, their faith shattered.  What kind of evangelization destroys faith?

The people in the parish where I live the choice is given: same priests, same reverence. There are 5 masses in every weekend, one TLM. The TLM is not more crowded than the other masses,


Quote:I encourage you to do so.  I am convinced that this kind of thoughtful examination of facts will show the Traditional Latin Mass is truer to the teaching of the Church.

I hope I will have time to that. However the fact is that the Church has 400,000 priest who celebrate the New Mass and around 2000 who celebrate the TLM. We have a good pope, who declared the New Mass the Ordinary form and the TLM the Extraordinary form. Your problem is that the obedience to the Magisterium is not in your blood, you believe that you know it better.

As for the comparison you can see one at:

http://www.the-pope.com/missals.html
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#42
(05-05-2010, 03:13 PM)glgas Wrote: Your problem is that the obedience to the Magisterium is not in your blood, you believe that you know it better.

This statement is without basis.  Obedience is extremely important to me.  It is at the core of my personal spirituality.  For me it is a way to express my love of the Church and of God.  I have never written anything here about myself disobeying the Magisterium because there is nothing to write.  I do not disobey.  I have made a point of expressing my acceptance of papal authority and my loyalty to the Pope many times.  I even put a reminder of this in my signature.

To criticize is not to disobey.  The Pope himself has been critical of the New Mass and it was he who first made me aware of the problems with it.  He does not say that we must accept it without  question.  You are the one who says that.  You are the one who believes he knows better than the Pope.
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#43
(05-05-2010, 03:13 PM)glgas Wrote: Your problem is that the obedience to the Magisterium is not in your blood, you believe that you know it better.

As for the comparison you can see one at:

glgas: For someone who utilizes a great deal of posts scolding other Catholics for, what you interpret as, pointing their pharisaical fingers at others, it comes as a surprise to me that you would think it good to point fingers at the intentions of others. I have not seen JayneK act as if she knows the Magisterium better than the Church.
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#44
(05-05-2010, 03:41 PM)JayneK Wrote: To criticize is not to disobey.  The Pope himself has been critical of the New Mass and it was he who first made me aware of the problems with it.  He does not say that we must accept it without  question.  You are the one who says that.  You are the one who believes he knows better than the Pope.

The pope (Paul VI) accepted the New Mass, he ordered it for everyone with a few exception. The pope today (Benedict XVI) defined the the New Mass as Ordinary Form, and the Antiquior Form as Extraordinary Form.

One can say: I like better the Old Mass, but one cannot say that the Old Mass would be better for every people, and certainly cannot say that the old mass would bring back the Good Old Times, when the air around us was Christian, and the main attraction of Sunday morning was the Mass, consequently 60+*% of the Catholic population attended Mass.

I know that in the sixties it could be seen that the influence of the Church to the life will be significantly diminishing, and the reason of the XXI Ecumenical Council was to accommodate the Church to the modern world. I know also that today there are 400,000 priest saying close to a million Masses in every weekend, and most of them before full Churches, influencing people. This is due to the vernacular, due to the active participation (this later pushed since Pius X), and due to some (mostly over-acted) appreciation of the laity. In any way the Church has some influence over the people through the New Mass . I was rised in the spirit of St Thomas Aquinas: a little existence worth significantly more than a ton on dream. 

In other hand the 2000 TLM priest has no measurable influence over the 1140 million Catholic population of the Church. There are not enough vocations for the TLM and the SSPX lost half of those whom they ordained as it is opposed to the about a quarter for the traditional times and for the New Mass priests today. 

As the bottom line, any ritual is man made, and by itself cannot bring redemption to the world. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer, and he is with the Pope and the Magisterium. The TLM has it's merit to help the priests to learn reverence in the Mass, but in itself will not sanctify the people. One need much more for being saved, and to cooperate with the grace of our Lord, that simply attending TLM.
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#45
(05-05-2010, 03:44 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: glgas: For someone who utilizes a great deal of posts scolding other Catholics for, what you interpret as, pointing their pharisaical fingers at others, it comes as a surprise to me that you would think it good to point fingers at the intentions of others. I have not seen JayneK act as if she knows the Magisterium better than the Church.

I meant the 'you' as it is: plural: a generalization for the most laud speakers of this group. JayneK is very far away toward the Center from the average.
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#46
(05-05-2010, 04:37 PM)glgas Wrote:
(05-05-2010, 03:44 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: glgas: For someone who utilizes a great deal of posts scolding other Catholics for, what you interpret as, pointing their pharisaical fingers at others, it comes as a surprise to me that you would think it good to point fingers at the intentions of others. I have not seen JayneK act as if she knows the Magisterium better than the Church.

I meant the 'you' as it is: plural: a generalization for the most laud speakers of this group. JayneK is very far away toward the Center from the average.

Okay, then I apologize for misunderstanding you.
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#47
(05-05-2010, 04:34 PM)glgas Wrote:
(05-05-2010, 03:41 PM)JayneK Wrote: To criticize is not to disobey.  The Pope himself has been critical of the New Mass and it was he who first made me aware of the problems with it.  He does not say that we must accept it without  question.  You are the one who says that.  You are the one who believes he knows better than the Pope.

The pope (Paul VI) accepted the New Mass, he ordered it for everyone with a few exception. The pope today (Benedict XVI) defined the the New Mass as Ordinary Form, and the Antiquior Form as Extraordinary Form.

This is not necessarily an indication that Pope Benedict thinks it is better.  It very well may be what he thinks is expedient, especially given his other comments about it.

(05-05-2010, 04:34 PM)glgas Wrote: One can say: I like better the Old Mass, but one cannot say that the Old Mass would be better for every people, and certainly cannot say that the old mass would bring back the Good Old Times, when the air around us was Christian, and the main attraction of Sunday morning was the Mass, consequently 60+*% of the Catholic population attended Mass.

But one can say that the changes to the Mass had doctrinal implications and that the commission was not instructed to change doctrine, only to encourage participation.  And one can say that these changes make essential Catholic doctrine less clear.  And one can say that it is better for everybody if Catholic doctrine is presented as clearly as possible. 

(05-05-2010, 04:34 PM)glgas Wrote: As the bottom line, any ritual is man made, and by itself cannot bring redemption to the world. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer, and he is with the Pope and the Magisterium. The TLM has it's merit to help the priests to learn reverence in the Mass, but in itself will not sanctify the people. One need much more for being saved, and to cooperate with the grace of our Lord, that simply attending TLM.

The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice on the Cross. The priest is the same.  The victim is the same.  The action is the same.  Only the manner is different.  The Mass brings redemption into the world just as Jesus' death on the Cross does.  Since this truth is obscured by the changes to the Mass, it is not surprising that you were wrong about this.  You have perfectly illustrated what is wrong with the New Mass.
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#48
(05-05-2010, 04:34 PM)glgas Wrote: As the bottom line, any ritual is man made, and by itself cannot bring redemption to the world. Jesus Christ is the Redeemer, and he is with the Pope and the Magisterium. The TLM has it's merit to help the priests to learn reverence in the Mass, but in itself will not sanctify the people. One need much more for being saved, and to cooperate with the grace of our Lord, that simply attending TLM.

I must say, that is absolutely horrible what you say there. This ritual, the Mass, is not "man-made"; it is God-made, and even if no one attends the Mass, reparation for sin is still effected. This dogma of the Church is something that the new Mass does not teach. As JayneK said, it is quite possible that is why you do not seem to know it.

I don't mean to be uncharitable to you here, especially for a Catholic, but it needs to be said that it seems your lack of understanding about the true nature of the Mass is probably the largest source of contention between you and traditional Catholics. Please consider reading what the Church Herself has declared about this "man-made ritual" and its ultimately salvific effect.
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#49
(05-05-2010, 05:11 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: This ritual, the Mass, is not "man-made"; it is God-made, and even if no one attends the Mass, reparation for sin is still effected. This dogma of the Church is something that the new Mass does not teach.

After recently attending a Low Mass where I was one of only two people in the pews, I realized everyone needs to do that at least once.  It really reinforces that the Mass isn't about the congregation.  We're there to assist and receive graces, but the Mass is complete without us.  It's easy to forget that when you only go on Sundays with a large group of people, but I suspect it's even easier to forget when the priest is always turned around having a running conversation with the people.
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#50
(05-05-2010, 12:02 AM)Zakhur Wrote: Here is her faculty page at Caldwell:

http://faculty.caldwell.edu/lpristas

This woman's work on the Modern Rite is nothing short of groundbreaking.  Her papers are a must read for anyone who would know anything about this new missal that was forced down the throats of the faithful.

Pristas of course doesn't quite express the same disgust as I.  She's too professional for that.  :)

This is excellent.  Thank you very much for the link.
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