Ranking arguments against the NO
#71
(05-05-2010, 08:29 AM)ResiduumRevertetur Wrote: Why did you repeat a negative word like "murmuring? Was it for emphasis of an important point to you? Bad form. Especially because I don't see instructions anywhere in the rubrics for "murmuring" these portions so...your claim is the equivalent of mine for liturgical dancers and giant puppet heads leading the procession of the NO. I can go there if you want me to.

I attended TLM quite regularly in average definitely more than once a week from age 5 to age 30. Unless I was the altar server, in the good old time IO never heard what the priest and the servers are saying. Being server for many masses I also know that many servers were just  humming their part, until age 7 when granpa taught me the word I was humming too. What is the positive English word to describe this situation?

Neither the liturgical dances, not the clawn Mass is part of the New Mass. I know a priest, whom in the good old times his mother called back from the altar to milk the goat. And he left the crown waiting for the Missa Cantata of Sunday, and milked the goat, proving his  hierarchy of the values. Compare the clown mass to this, feces happens, but we do not attack Jesus Christ who is among as in the Eucharist, equally in the TLM and the New Mass, and in different but also real way trough His mystical Body the hierarchical Jurisdictional Church.
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#72
(05-07-2010, 09:02 PM)glgas Wrote:
(05-05-2010, 08:29 AM)ResiduumRevertetur Wrote: Why did you repeat a negative word like "murmuring? Was it for emphasis of an important point to you? Bad form. Especially because I don't see instructions anywhere in the rubrics for "murmuring" these portions so...your claim is the equivalent of mine for liturgical dancers and giant puppet heads leading the procession of the NO. I can go there if you want me to.

I attended TLM quite regularly in average definitely more than once a week from age 5 to age 30. Unless I was the altar server, in the good old time IO never heard what the priest and the servers are saying. Being server for many masses I also know that many servers were just  humming their part, until age 7 when granpa taught me the word I was humming too. What is the positive English word to describe this situation?

Neither the liturgical dances, not the clawn Mass is part of the New Mass. I know a priest, whom in the good old times his mother called back from the altar to milk the goat. And he left the crown waiting for the Missa Cantata of Sunday, and milked the goat, proving his  hierarchy of the values. Compare the clown mass to this, feces happens, but we do not attack Jesus Christ who is among as in the Eucharist, equally in the TLM and the New Mass, and in different but also real way trough His mystical Body the hierarchical Jurisdictional Church.

No one interested in the Church's liturgy could ever deny that abuse has always accompanied Her rites of worship. 

I for one am not concerned by the abuse inflicted on either Rite of Mass by those who bring them to life from either rite's respective missals.  This is inevitable given human nature.  I am concerned rather with the intrinsic content of both missals, that is, the words of these two missals as liturgical prayer.

It is impossible for an intellectually honest person to conclude, after a rigorous comparison of the texts of both missals, that the New Missal manifests the Faith better than the Tridentine Missal.  The fact is that the former does not manifest the Faith as well as the latter.

As I said before, it is impossible to say that recognition of this fact is an act of disobedience.  The fact that you want to say this indicates to me that you don't understand what obedience is and what its definite limitations upon the human subject are.  The duty to obey lawful authority does not apply when total obedience to that authority would endanger a person's faith in the dogma of the Church.

You want to say that the foregoing paragraph is heretical and demonic because rebellious.  On the contrary, if I had said that obedience to the Church's dogmas endangered one's faith in Jesus Christ, then I would be saying exactly what Martin Luther said.  For that is what Martin Luther believed, and he consequently defined his own dogmas.

My opinion about these two rites of Mass, that the one has an obscuring effect on the Faith (the Modern Rite) and that the other transmits the Faith unabashedly (the Tridentine Rite), is a judgment regarding a reformable decision by a pope (Paul VI).  The fact that so many of the faithful, including theologians of immense credibility with the Vatican such as Von Hildebrand and Mgr. Klaus Gamber, as well as members of the hierarchy such as Alphonse Cardinal Stickler and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, share this opinion encourages me that this opinion is correct.

But besides that, there is the empirical eveidence in the missal.  But you would ask me to deny the prima facie evidence before my very eyes for the sake of your misunderstanding of obedience!?

I'm sorry, but when I learned about obedience when I was a kid, it did not include the necessity of assent to myths.  And it is myth that the Modern Rite is not damaging to the Faith.  Pope Paul VI made a gross error and he was not the first pope to do so, nor is he the first pope who, by his actions, offended the sensus fidelium.  Have you forgotten about the doctrine of the sensus fidelium?

You sure sound like it.
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#73
(05-08-2010, 10:47 AM)Zakhur Wrote: It is impossible for an intellectually honest person to conclude, after a rigorous comparison of the texts of both missals, that the New Missal manifests the Faith better than the Tridentine Missal.  The fact is that the former does not manifest the Faith as well as the latter.

I am not sure that I understand you clearly, but as I read:

1./ when I will come back vacation I will put to the net the block by block comparison between the Vetera and Nova Mass. You will have the opportunity to show your compelling evidence for the Old. When I worked on that, I was surprised on the striking similarity between the two. 

2./ The fact is that there are about a million Masses every weekend according to the New Order for about 250 million faithful, who attend the New Mass, and they are less than 5000 Antiquior Masses at Sundays (overestimation) for less that half million people. Jesus Christ established the Eucharist, because he wanted met the people  with his body to help them to resist the cockle around us. He knew, that the cockle cannot be removed before the end of the time, but he also knew, that His presence is necessary all over the world, and today this realises only through the new Mass

He wants reality, not dreams.
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#74
See to gigas its about numbers. Its not the mass that counts but how many get sqeezewdd in. Really comparing the NO to a protestant super church in texas using gigas way of thinking the superchurch which is packed is clearly more pleasing to God as the biggest NO one any given sunday in the states won't fill up a stadium size entertainment church as the prods do.
So
That's what its about
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#75
(05-09-2010, 06:58 AM)glgas Wrote:
(05-08-2010, 10:47 AM)Zakhur Wrote: It is impossible for an intellectually honest person to conclude, after a rigorous comparison of the texts of both missals, that the New Missal manifests the Faith better than the Tridentine Missal.  The fact is that the former does not manifest the Faith as well as the latter.

I am not sure that I understand you clearly, but as I read:

1./ when I will come back vacation I will put to the net the block by block comparison between the Vetera and Nova Mass. You will have the opportunity to show your compelling evidence for the Old. When I worked on that, I was surprised on the striking similarity between the two. 

2./ The fact is that there are about a million Masses every weekend according to the New Order for about 250 million faithful, who attend the New Mass, and they are less than 5000 Antiquior Masses at Sundays (overestimation) for less that half million people. Jesus Christ established the Eucharist, because he wanted met the people  with his body to help them to resist the cockle around us. He knew, that the cockle cannot be removed before the end of the time, but he also knew, that His presence is necessary all over the world, and today this realises only through the new Mass

He wants reality, not dreams.

Yeah, like you're dreams, glglas.  You must have a rather big head to think your work could lead to conclusions more superior to Mgr. Klaus Gamber or Dr. Lauren Pristas.

Those two supplied me with the evidence.  You can read Gamber's analysis in this short little book:

The Modern Rite

Pristas's papers can be found here:

http://faculty.caldwell.edu/lpristas
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#76
(05-09-2010, 11:34 AM)Zakhur Wrote: You can read Gamber's analysis in this short little book:

The Modern Rite

Is there a url for this? It sounds interesting.
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#77
The book is not, to my knowledge, available on the internet.  You would have to buy it from some publisher.  However, there is this overview of it:

http://www.latin-mass-society.org/themodernrite.htm
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#78
(05-09-2010, 07:33 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: See to gigas its about numbers. Its not the mass that counts but how many get sqeezewdd in. Really comparing the NO to a protestant super church in texas using gigas way of thinking the superchurch which is packed is clearly more pleasing to God as the biggest NO one any given sunday in the states won't fill up a stadium size entertainment church as the prods do.
So
That's what its about


Too bad gl's wrong on that.  We have a really nice super fellowship across the street...it'd save a lot of time...the folks all look normal...no burka wearer or frump a dumps, everyone looks nice and they have great facilities.  They put on really cool car shows and other events periodically.....would be really nice.
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#79
Wow car shows too. What do u think gigas? Wonder what wheels CHRIST will cruz in during the second comming?
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#80
If it's just about numbers, perhaps glgas should look into Islam.

Like Credo.
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