Poll: Should the Charismatic Movement be suppressed?
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Should the Charismatic Movement Be Suppressed?
#51
From the CE:
Quote:Corinthian Abuses (I Corinthians  14 passim).—Medieval and modern writers wrongly take it for granted that the charism existed  permanently at Corinth  — as it did nowhere else—and that St. Paul, in commending the gift to the Corinthians, therewith gave his guaranty that the characteristics of Corinthian glossolaly were those of the gift itself. Traditional  writers in overlooking this point place St. Luke at variance with St. Paul, and attribute to the charism properties  so contrary as to make it inexplicable and prohibitively mysterious. There is enough in St. Paul to show us that the Corinthian  peculiarities were ignoble accretions and abuses. They made of "tongues" a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without (14:23). The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble (9, 10) with an element of uncertain sounds (7, 8 ), which sometimes might be construed as little short of blasphemous  (12:3). The Divine praises were recognized now and then, but the general effect was one of confusion and disedification for the very unbelievers for whom the normal gift  was intended (14:22, 23, 26). The Corinthians, misled not by insincerity but by simplicity and ignorance (20), were actuated by an undisciplined religious  spirit (pneuma), or rather by frenzied emotions and not by the understanding (nous) of the Spirit of God  (15). What today purports to be the "gift of tongues" at certain  Protestant revivals is a fair reproduction of Corinthian glossolaly, and shows the need there was in the primitive Church  of the Apostle's counsel to do all things "decently, and according to order" (40).

Faithful adherence to the text of Sacred Scripture makes it obligatory to reject those opinions which turn the charism of tongues into little more than infantile babbling (Eichhorn, Schmidt, Neander), incoherent exclamations (Meyer), pythonic utterances (Wiseler), or prophetic demonstrations of the archaic kind (see 1 Samuel 19:20, 24). The unalloyed charism was as much an exercise of the intelligence as of the emotions. Languages or dialects, now kainais (Mark 16:17) for their present purpose, and now spontaneously borrowed by the conservative Hebrew from Gentile foreigners (eteroglossois, cheilesin eteron, 1 Corinthians 14:21), were used as never before. But they were understood even by those who used them. Most Latin commentators have believed the contrary, but the ancient Greeks, St. Cyril of Alexandria, Theodoret, and others who were nearer the scene, agree to it and the testimony of the texts as above studied seems to bear them out.
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#52
(06-04-2010, 03:07 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: Catholics with any sensus Catholicus will be able to see this is not Catholic:



Good night nurse!

It looks like someone took my old protestant church and put an actor dressed like a Catholic priest in there! 

How is that Mass?  And when The Blessed Sacrament is exposed in the monstrance,  why are they singing & clapping instead of praying on their knees?! :puke:
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#53
Yes, it's heretical if often well intentioned.
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#54
There's a Medjugorie inspired shrine in Arizona that I visited recently.  The woman that owns the place supposedly receives messages from the Blessed Mother and Jesus on a monthly basis.  They have regular prayer healing sessions there with lots of kooky feel good charismatic stuff with some truth here and there.  There's also said to be supernatural experiences that everyone hears or sees.  I really skeptical but....

I took these pictures there, of course they are just natural spots from the glare of the sun but... judge for yourself.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kbernadette...4082434731

The Charismatic movement has some redeeming qualities.  I personally can't stand it but members of my family swear by it and have made some serious life changes within it.  I wouldn't say it should be suppressed, but regulated, strongly.
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#55
(06-05-2010, 12:17 AM)Walty Wrote: Yes, it's heretical if often well intentioned.

The charismatics are even more divided group that the traditionalists.

Their only common denominator is the worship of the Holy Spirit. Those who go so far, that the Fathers rule was replaced by the rule of the Son and now that is replaced by the rule of the Holy Spirit, and heretics; but most of the charismatic groups do not go to this direction.

The idea that in critical times God could and sometimes do act through individuals and immediate intervention, in itself is not heretic, and until it is under the supervision of the hierarchical jurisdictional Church there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is, if someone believes that one can separate oneself from the hierarchical jurisdictional Church and still living member of the Catholic Church. Certainly there are charismatics with this belive as there are traditionalists too.

To worship the Holy Spirit is not heresy. He is God, the third divine Person. Pentecost is the day of his festivity.
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#56
Metatron Wrote:Sorry, I misinterpreted it. I thought you were being sarcastic

I was being sarcastic, but not towards your position.

crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote:Yes, God granted the Apostles the Gift of the Holy Spirit and the ability to speak in tongues.... Nowhere does it say that the modern church congregation should be handed down this special gift...

Alright, but nowhere do the Scriptures say modern congregations should not be handed down this special gift.

Quote:Besides, how can one discern for sure whether the laity that supposedly  are "speaking in tongues,"  falling down, and fainting on the spot is truly derived from the Holy Spirit?? ???

Now we're getting somewhere. This is where such activity could be dangerous.
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#57
(06-05-2010, 07:53 AM)Credo Wrote: Alright, but nowhere do the Scriptures say modern congregations should not be handed down this special gift.

Neither the opposite is said. I am personaly uneasy with such excesses, but I do not consider myself the measure for others. 

Quote:
Quote:Besides, how can one discern for sure whether the laity that supposedly  are "speaking in tongues,"  falling down, and fainting on the spot is truly derived from the Holy Spirit?? ???
Now we're getting somewhere. This is where such activity could be dangerous.

Everything alive could be dangerous. One of the dangers of the traditionalist movement to prefer the frozen half-dead status to avoid possible dangers, and meanwhile avoiding the life too.  St Paul's opposition was only that we need more people who explain those speaking on tongues, not the speaking itself.

1 Cor 14:13 And therefore he that speaketh by a tongue, let him pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is without fruit. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, I will pray also with the understanding; I will sing with the spirit, I will sing also with the understanding.

The Church started to reject the speaking oin tongues in the 2nd Century, when the gnostics abused it, promoting their heresy that Jesus Christ is failed, and the resolution is the era of the Holy Spirit. Later on, and until the 20th Century the Church forbade any activity by the laity other than listening, paying the tithe and providing children as future members of the clergy. Starting with St Pius X this stand is changing.
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#58
(06-05-2010, 09:41 AM)glgas Wrote: Starting with St Pius X this stand is changing.


HUH??  What do you mean Starting with St. Pius X??  I don't recall he said anything good or anything at all for that matter on the notion that laity are allowed to "speak in tongues!"  He was totally against modernism, and most of this "Speaking in tongues" nonsense didn't  come about until the Modernist Charismatic movement began in 1967... As far as I gather, it started to infiltrate the catholic church thereafter by the 1980's and 90's!
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#59
Pentecostalism is heretical as is all enthusiasm for the simple reason that it divinizes sentiment and denigrates reason.
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#60
(06-05-2010, 10:23 AM)crusaderfortruth3372 Wrote:
(06-05-2010, 09:41 AM)glgas Wrote: Starting with St Pius X this stand is changing.


HUH??  What do you mean Starting with St. Pius X??  I don't recall he said anything good or anything at all for that matter on the notion that laity are allowed to "speak in tongues!" 

Read again please the previous sentence from may message. "Later on, and until the 20th Century the Church forbade any activity by the laity other than listening, paying the tithe and providing children as future members of the clergy.  Starting with St Pius X this stand is changing. "

It may be characteristic for the traditionalist to extract details what they can condemn (like the identifying the New Mass with the clown mass), but honest man always consider the full entity.
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