Communication with Slightly Autistic People
#21
(07-02-2010, 02:33 PM)Penelope Wrote: What you've said makes a lot of sense, and I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as "inclusiveness" is concerned. It's a major issue in Education as more and more public elementary, middle, and high schools move toward the inclusion model of education, with barely a thought to who is being done a disservice (meaning both the mainstream kids and the ones with spec ed needs).

Keep in mind his mind works perfectly fine in other areas, and whatever his major was, he likely excelled at it. His productivity would be average or above average.

Also, most SAPs are under a lot of stress just by being around other people. All those differences you listed are probably known to him, but he is under so much stress that he can't find it in him to care. This stress held him and others back all through out life and will continue to do so.

Take me for instance...I work in a factory at the lowest position. My brother, who was slightly behind me academicly is at the number one school for engineering and in his second year...I'd have graduated by now. Why is there this difference? Because I almost died from living around "normal people". Why have I settled for working in a factory? Because they hired me. I do have a degree though. Why am I not bitter? Because I decided I want to be a writer instead of working in a profession like others.

Think of how you would do.

You are in a world where everyone is different from you. They are highly social and can spot differences in an instant. What it takes you a minute to figure out, they do it without thinking about it and they cannot explain it to you. You can study their language, but their idiom and non-verbal communication is totally lost to you in communication (even if you understand it in theory, there is no way you can use it fast enough to be helpful in actual communication). Nobody will give you feedback, and nobody will be understanding unless you know them well, and sometimes not even then. Everyone expects you to be just like them. This will be your life from birth to death. How would you feel?

Another analogy: You are picked up and dropped in a foreign country where you do not know the language. Everybody in that country does not know you are not native and everyone expects you to be just like them and they do not react to you when you obviously are not like them, and they continue to expect you to be perfect. Eventually, you could learn the language, but it is hard without actual formal study in it, so you have to learn it in bits and pieces as you go. It will take years to learn the language and culture on your own. It will take my mistakes and many failures. Oh, and during this time, you have to take some tests which will determine your future course, no matter how good you get in the future, it is during this time of formation where you have to do your best.
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#22
(07-02-2010, 05:56 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: Take me for instance...I work in a factory at the lowest position. My brother, who was slightly behind me academicly is at the number one school for engineering and in his second year...I'd have graduated by now. Why is there this difference? Because I almost died from living around "normal people". Why have I settled for working in a factory? Because they hired me. I do have a degree though. Why am I not bitter? Because I decided I want to be a writer instead of working in a profession like others.

Think of how you would do.

You are in a world where everyone is different from you. They are highly social and can spot differences in an instant. What it takes you a minute to figure out, they do it without thinking about it and they cannot explain it to you. You can study their language, but their idiom and non-verbal communication is totally lost to you in communication (even if you understand it in theory, there is no way you can use it fast enough to be helpful in actual communication). Nobody will give you feedback, and nobody will be understanding unless you know them well, and sometimes not even then. Everyone expects you to be just like them. This will be your life from birth to death. How would you feel?

Another analogy: You are picked up and dropped in a foreign country where you do not know the language. Everybody in that country does not know you are not native and everyone expects you to be just like them and they do not react to you when you obviously are not like them, and they continue to expect you to be perfect. Eventually, you could learn the language, but it is hard without actual formal study in it, so you have to learn it in bits and pieces as you go. It will take years to learn the language and culture on your own. It will take my mistakes and many failures. Oh, and during this time, you have to take some tests which will determine your future course, no matter how good you get in the future, it is during this time of formation where you have to do your best.

Hmm... I can relate to your analogies personally.  Although I believe my problems were due to difficulties with growing up overweight and with health problems that were left undiagnosed until recently (ie. I grew up thinking I was the problem) .  Also, we moved around alot and I was subjected to mild sexual abuse and bullying as a child.  Then again, maybe I'm a SAP too?  Or maybe the feelings of alienation you describe are just much more profound for SAPs?
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#23
(07-02-2010, 05:44 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-02-2010, 10:48 AM)Penelope Wrote: Yeah, 'disordered' wasn't exactly the term I was looking for. How about this? There can be a fine line between quirky and behaviors that require some kind of intervention.
"Require" in this case usually involves actual danger, not annoyance. If a person is a danger to oneself or others, then intervention is required.

If one is annoying than it is up to them. If one doesn't care or know one is annoying, then it really doesn't matter. Plenty of people are annoying.

Okay, but he doesn't live in a bubble. There are consequences for abnormal behavior, and it affects those around him. It certainly matters, whether or not it matters personally to the "annoying" person. Autism or no autism.

Quote:
Quote:An example, if you will: There is a guy who attended the same university as I did. He may still be there or he may have graduated; I don't know. I had at least one class with him, my roommate had multiple classes with him, and two of my friends lived next door to him in the dorms our sophomore or junior year. He has autism. Classes with him were a nightmare. He wanted to participate, which was fine, but he dominated discussion and often got into arguments with professors, to the point where the professors would have to cut him off so that they could move on. As soon as this guy began talking, we knew that nothing else was going to get accomplished in class that day. I think some professors didn't have the heart to tell him to stop talking--no one wants to be mean to the kid with autism.
This is not unique. Many "normal" people can do this or worse. Do they require intervention? Just because a person with autism happens to have some trait, it shouldn't be treated differently from other people. If one is forcing a person to change because they have autism, they have a crowd of normal people with the same trait.

SAPs do not need to be perfect any more than anyone else. They can be annoying, funny smelling and quirky without needing their rights restricted.

Certainly, there are many people without autism who do these behaviors as well, but as I said, where a professor could tell a "normal" student to just stop talking so the class can move on, it seems as though many professors were unwilling to appear as though they were being mean to the kid with autism, so instead of helping to teach him appropriate classroom behavior, they just let him slide. Who benefits from that? Certainly not the guy with autism, and also not the other students. No one wants to restrict somebody's rights, but the other students in the class have rights that are being restricted due to this frustrating situation.

Quote:
Quote:He also engaged in what I imagine could fall into the category of self-stimulation. According to my friends who lived next to him, he would bang on the wall of his dorm (or maybe he was rocking his chair into the wall) until well into the night and early morning, making it difficult for his neighbors to concentrate on their schoolwork or to sleep. In addition, he either didn't seem to understand or didn't seem to care that he should bathe regularly and he would wear the same clothing for days on end. Frankly, he couldn't (or didn't) really take good care of himself. Why the university or his parents did not provide an aid for him is beyond me.
Public nuisance or whatever can be dealt with as any other. In this same dorm, people were bring girls/guys over, leaving dirty dishes out and listening to music and playing video games and at least one other person was not happy about it. It is the nature of a dorm.

I don't think you understand the frequency or volume of the disturbance. I heard it a few times myself, and it was loud and would go on at length. Also, just because other students did annoying things doesn't mean this kid should be allowed to continue his repeated disturbances. I would suggest that all instances of repeated disturbances by any resident should be dealt with.

Quote:
Quote:Anyway, the point is this: Are these behaviors that require intervention? I mean, who cares if he's a little grungy, right? The hippies on campus didn't really shower that often either. And so what if he can't really engage in a conversation according to societal standards or doesn't follow typical classroom etiquette? These are just quirks, right? Except that this kid's quirks negatively affected the ability of other students to learn in their classes. So does his behavior require modification? I really don't know. I think maybe yes, but it's a fine line.
If the school did not want him to be there, there were measures. Also, keep in mind that not all autistic people are like this, Chances are, at least one professor was a SAP, and there were likely more SAPs there which didn't get this attention.

I'm sure that's the case. And they're probably higher-functioning than this kid is. Also, "SAP" seems derogatory to me.  ;)

Quote:This behaviour does require modification if one has goals which require it, but as it is, it isn't illegal or dangerous, so it is freedom. In my book about communication, I point out that the book is to help people communicate, but I do not have assumptions of motive. Leading a horse to water and all that right?

So it only depends on the one guy's goals? It's only important to help someone fit into society to keep him out of danger? What about the goals of those around him that his behavior might interfere with? Like I said, he doesn't live in a bubble.

Quote:
Quote:Okay, so I don't know what this guy's official diagnosis is. He's definitely on the spectrum, but I don' know where. I certainly wouldn't call him high-functioning, but he definitely is verbal (verbose, even), and he can make it through a day without having a meltdown.
That is high functioning. If he can talk and living on his own, that is high functioning when autism is concerned.

Rainman was high functioning for a reference point.

Well, he could live on his own to a degree, but like I said, his hygiene was questionable and I can't say how well he'd do actually on his own, having to pay bills, etc. I never saw Rainman, so I'm afraid the reference is lost on me.

Quote:
Quote: I guess his parents and doctors considered him high-functioning enough to send him off to college by himself, at the very least.
He was high functioning; very high functioning. He may have had Asperger's Syndrome by your description.

Sounds about right. But if that's high-functioning, than high-functioning on the autism spectrum is rather not-high-functioning by typical standards. Shouldn't we try to help him understand and work toward being even higher-functioning?

(07-02-2010, 05:56 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: Keep in mind his mind works perfectly fine in other areas, and whatever his major was, he likely excelled at it. His productivity would be average or above average.

I know. That's why this is so frustrating. He's very bright, from what I can tell, and he probably does more work than the mainstream students. I can't begin to imagine what life is like for him, and yet I can't imagine it being wrong to want him to be able to participate more fully in "normal" human communication. Have you heard of the idea that autism isn't necessarily permanent, and that kids have been cured of having autism? I read an account in an autism-related periodical where a kid had previously been autistic, and then he wasn't. No idea what would cause him to suddenly no longer be autistic. He was apparently able to express to his mother what it was like to have autism and how it was different to not have it. I have my doubts as to the validity, but I'm no psychologist or MD. What do you think?

Quote:Take me for instance...I work in a factory at the lowest position. My brother, who was slightly behind me academicly is at the number one school for engineering and in his second year...I'd have graduated by now. Why is there this difference? Because I almost died from living around "normal people". Why have I settled for working in a factory? Because they hired me. I do have a degree though. Why am I not bitter? Because I decided I want to be a writer instead of working in a profession like others.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded piece, but I'm very sorry to hear it. And if it's any consolation, I think we're about the same age. I did just graduated from college with a BA, and I can't find a job. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

Quote:Think of how you would do.

You are in a world where everyone is different from you. They are highly social and can spot differences in an instant. What it takes you a minute to figure out, they do it without thinking about it and they cannot explain it to you. You can study their language, but their idiom and non-verbal communication is totally lost to you in communication (even if you understand it in theory, there is no way you can use it fast enough to be helpful in actual communication). Nobody will give you feedback, and nobody will be understanding unless you know them well, and sometimes not even then. Everyone expects you to be just like them. This will be your life from birth to death. How would you feel?

You're right, I can't imagine it. I think there is a boatload of frustration involved on both ends of communication between a person with autism and a person without autism. I tried to run a club meeting in college (I was president of the pro-life group on my campus) and a new member joined. He had some form of autism (he didn't tell me so, but I know it when I see it), and it was so difficult for both of us to communicate. It seemed to me that he was trying really hard to use techniques he had maybe learned from private instruction on how to communicate (repeating what was asked to you to make sure you understand, answering in complete sentences, using phrases like, "I see what you're saying here" and then expanding on it, etc.), but it took him a long time to respond, he never made eye contact, and like the other kid I discussed, he didn't seem to know when to stop after he had made a point. It's difficult for me to lead a meeting when this kind of thing dominates the time we have for the meeting, but I can't imagine his frustration or difficulties in communicating, and the courage it took for him to come out to the meeting and interact with people he probably didn't understand. I think your book is a great idea, Herr, because having knowledge about how to communicate with folks with autism is absolutely necessary and would benefit both parties. Maybe you can title a chapter "Be patient" or something.

I had one other question for you, but I can't remember it at the moment, and this post is long enough.

By the way, I hope you don't take offense to anything I've said. Really. I'm just trying to better understand something that both fascinates and frustrates me, especially because on the off-chance that I actually get a teaching job, I'm sure I'll encounter students with autism over and over again and I want to be of some use to them.
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#24
(07-03-2010, 02:26 AM)Penelope Wrote: Okay, but he doesn't live in a bubble. There are consequences for abnormal behavior, and it affects those around him. It certainly matters, whether or not it matters personally to the "annoying" person. Autism or no autism.
That is true. But like I said, he may not care. I know many people find me intimidating when they first see me. I do not mind. It is better than the alternative and being feared is a good way to get respect with no effort.

Quote:Certainly, there are many people without autism who do these behaviors as well, but as I said, where a professor could tell a "normal" student to just stop talking so the class can move on, it seems as though many professors were unwilling to appear as though they were being mean to the kid with autism, so instead of helping to teach him appropriate classroom behavior, they just let him slide. Who benefits from that? Certainly not the guy with autism, and also not the other students.
That is true. When it comes to such situations, we should be treated just like everyone else. It is very frustrating to be "accommodated" in this way.


Quote:I would suggest that all instances of repeated disturbances by any resident should be dealt with.
That is what I was suggesting.

Quote:I'm sure that's the case. And they're probably higher-functioning than this kid is. Also, "SAP" seems derogatory to me.  ;)
SAP is for some reason funny to me, and I'll continue to use it (and somehow get it into my book, and hope it catches on). Anything is better than "Aspy", which I hate.

Quote:So it only depends on the one guy's goals? It's only important to help someone fit into society to keep him out of danger? What about the goals of those around him that his behavior might interfere with? Like I said, he doesn't live in a bubble.
If he smells bad, it has a virtual bubble :)

Yes, if one is not in immediate danger or violating the law, then it is ultimately up to that individual to change.

Quote:Well, he could live on his own to a degree, but like I said, his hygiene was questionable and I can't say how well he'd do actually on his own, having to pay bills, etc. I never saw Rainman, so I'm afraid the reference is lost on me.
In the film, he cannot live without someone to give him rather substantial care. Autism, in the classical sense, involves mental retardation (apparent, anyway) and not speaking at all. Ever. So, being able to talk is considered high functioning. This is a split though. This is a continuation (it seems) of classical autism. Asperger's Syndrome is almost entirely a personality. We have no issues with such development. I walked when I was 9 months old without any assistance and spoke at a normal age. An autistic child would not.

Quote:Sounds about right. But if that's high-functioning, than high-functioning on the autism spectrum is rather not-high-functioning by typical standards. Shouldn't we try to help him understand and work toward being even higher-functioning?
No, it isn't a very high standard. It is sort of like saying "less helpless".

If you want to help him, offer it to him.

I know a person at work who cannot read very well (I would say he is illiterate, but he is just really, really inexperienced in reading. I think with practice, he could be as good as anyone. It seems to be only a matter of education/history rather than anything about him), and he would avoid instances where it was needed. I told him recently if he ever needed help, to just ask me. He has asked me many things since then. If I hadn't offered, he wouldn't have asked. Also, when he finds out he was right is probably very good for his confidence. In my experience as a tutor (which, for some reason, I am very good at and everyone who I have ever helped found me very helpful), this is the most important factor for improvement. Most people without any actual object limitation (for example, some things are a limit, like intelligence and dyslexia) need confidence in themselves to actually improve anything.

Quote: Have you heard of the idea that autism isn't necessarily permanent, and that kids have been cured of having autism?
I have heard of it, and written a bit about it in my book. In these cases, I believe that the symptoms were caused by something treatable and it emulated autism, instead of actually being autism. For this reason, I do not recommend people to seek "cures", but to be very mindful of improving physical health and eliminating any hidden issues which should be screened before doing anything extraordinary.

Quote: I read an account in an autism-related periodical where a kid had previously been autistic, and then he wasn't. No idea what would cause him to suddenly no longer be autistic. He was apparently able to express to his mother what it was like to have autism and how it was different to not have it. I have my doubts as to the validity, but I'm no psychologist or MD. What do you think?
That would be very interesting. This sounds like a neurological condition, which I believe autism to be. Most people with autism do improve their abilities with time. People with Asperger's Syndrome often develop very well (like myself). However, for AS, this is mostly experience. As children, we are normal and above average sometimes. It is during development that we struggle.

If someone claimed to have Asperger's Syndrome and was "cured", I'd not believe it unless one could actually pinpoint the exact difference in the body/brain of those with AS and those without.



Quote:(repeating what was asked to you to make sure you understand,
That is called "echolalia" and is not taught as a communication technique. It is thought (by some) to be a mental method of giving oneself time to understand what was said.

Quote:answering in complete sentences, using phrases like, "I see what you're saying here" and then expanding on it, etc.), but it took him a long time to respond, he never made eye contact, and like the other kid I discussed, he didn't seem to know when to stop after he had made a point.
That is a good effort. In my book, I have a whole chapter on silence. It is all blank. Just kidding. For communication, not speaking is as significant as speaking. I've read about this and seen it by accident sometimes (and now I use it actively). Once, I was buying something and the price had been changed (it was changed everywhere; it wasn't a mistake. I just didn't realise it). As I paused to think about this, which was apparently too long, the cashier let me have it any way for the old price. Now, I know he probably thought I was thinking of something and waiting for a purpose, but the truth was I was just a bit surprised and was thinking about the situation. Not speaking got me more than any argument could, and more than what I actually expected.

Quote:It's difficult for me to lead a meeting when this kind of thing dominates the time we have for the meeting, but I can't imagine his frustration or difficulties in communicating, and the courage it took for him to come out to the meeting and interact with people he probably didn't understand.
It is sort of like communicating with someone who may suddenly get the wrong message for no known reason. Without practice or experience, regular people seem to react quite randomly to our words and we cannot easily figure out why (and no one explains it to us...).

Quote: I think your book is a great idea, Herr, because having knowledge about how to communicate with folks with autism is absolutely necessary and would benefit both parties. Maybe you can title a chapter "Be patient" or something.
My book repeatedly stresses the importance of practice and experience.

Quote:I had one other question for you, but I can't remember it at the moment, and this post is long enough.
Post it when you remember. I'll respond when I'm able.

Quote:By the way, I hope you don't take offense to anything I've said.
I only take offence to:

* Accusations of lying
* Statements about my mum that are not respectful
* Defence of the British treatment of the Irish at any point in time

Even if you deliberating and blatantly tried to offend me, I'd probably not care enough to acknowledge it (except perhaps to say it was not useful and to stay on topic).

Quote: Really. I'm just trying to better understand something that both fascinates and frustrates me, especially because on the off-chance that I actually get a teaching job, I'm sure I'll encounter students with autism over and over again and I want to be of some use to them.
There is a chapter for teachers and care givers in my book, because you WILL meet them quite frequently. I'd wager money, if I were the type to do that, there would be at least one in every class any given teacher has.
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#25
(07-02-2010, 06:43 PM)miss_fluffy Wrote: Hmm... I can relate to your analogies personally.  Although I believe my problems were due to difficulties with growing up overweight and with health problems that were left undiagnosed until recently (ie. I grew up thinking I was the problem) .  Also, we moved around alot and I was subjected to mild sexual abuse and bullying as a child. 
People with AS are normal (on average) in every way except when it comes to socialising with other people. So, the reactions are not unique, only the exact causes are. A person in situations which are similar to an individual would cause similar feelings (I think, we cannot really know what another feels).

Quote:Then again, maybe I'm a SAP too?  Or maybe the feelings of alienation you describe are just much more profound for SAPs?
Probably not a SAP. It isn't that more profound I think. I think it is much less than what a normal person would feel in the same situation. It is just more ever-present. There is no escape and there never will be for one with AS living with other people in normal society.
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#26
(07-03-2010, 09:29 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: I know a person at work who cannot read very well (I would say he is illiterate, but he is just really, really inexperienced in reading. I think with practice, he could be as good as anyone. It seems to be only a matter of education/history rather than anything about him), and he would avoid instances where it was needed. I told him recently if he ever needed help, to just ask me. He has asked me many things since then. If I hadn't offered, he wouldn't have asked. Also, when he finds out he was right is probably very good for his confidence. In my experience as a tutor (which, for some reason, I am very good at and everyone who I have ever helped found me very helpful), this is the most important factor for improvement. Most people without any actual object limitation (for example, some things are a limit, like intelligence and dyslexia) need confidence in themselves to actually improve anything.

You're probably right about this guy at your work. If you ever need some techniques identifying and helping him improve with his particular difficulties (For instance, is his present level of word-recognition low? Or can he read plenty of words but not know what they mean in context? This is illiteracy, too.), there's a great book I can recommend to you.
Quote:
Quote:(repeating what was asked to you to make sure you understand,
That is called "echolalia" and is not taught as a communication technique. It is thought (by some) to be a mental method of giving oneself time to understand what was said.

Sorry. I didn't mean repeating word-for-word. I meant rephrasing.

Quote: In my book, I have a whole chapter on silence. It is all blank. Just kidding.
:laughing:

Quote:
Quote:It's difficult for me to lead a meeting when this kind of thing dominates the time we have for the meeting, but I can't imagine his frustration or difficulties in communicating, and the courage it took for him to come out to the meeting and interact with people he probably didn't understand.
It is sort of like communicating with someone who may suddenly get the wrong message for no known reason. Without practice or experience, regular people seem to react quite randomly to our words and we cannot easily figure out why (and no one explains it to us...).

Huh. That's really interesting. Is it that you may expect one response and get another or that you don't have any expectations as to what the response should be?

Quote:I only take offence to:
* Defence of the British treatment of the Irish at any point in time

;D My boyfriend's family is from Ireland. There's still tension about it. They won't even drink Black and Tan beer.

Quote:
Quote: Really. I'm just trying to better understand something that both fascinates and frustrates me, especially because on the off-chance that I actually get a teaching job, I'm sure I'll encounter students with autism over and over again and I want to be of some use to them.
There is a chapter for teachers and care givers in my book, because you WILL meet them quite frequently. I'd wager money, if I were the type to do that, there would be at least one in every class any given teacher has.

If that's the case, then I guess the frequency with which autism occurs may be a pretty good support for the idea of much of it being a continuum of personalities and quirkiness and not so much a disorder.
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#27
(07-03-2010, 11:56 AM)Penelope Wrote: You're probably right about this guy at your work. If you ever need some techniques identifying and helping him improve with his particular difficulties (For instance, is his present level of word-recognition low? Or can he read plenty of words but not know what they mean in context? This is illiteracy, too.), there's a great book I can recommend to you.
He just seems to be very out of practice. Spelling is very new to him. He knows the letters and how they are used. I am not sure how he reads. I think he cannot recognise many words by sight (unlike me; I recognise almost all words in most texts by sight) and "sounds it out" or remembers what they mean. For example, he asked me how to spell "glasses" (he was right) and he wasn't sure how to spell "told", but he got that right too. So, from my experiences, he seems to be just at a lower level in skill, rather than being stuck in any other way. No dyslexia or anything.

His speech and grammar are not what I'd call great, but then again, I think that about most people at work. What is the book? I may be interested in it. I always like to learn about learning. I like knowing how other people may work. For me, I do not remember how I learned to read. I remember school, but I think my actual reading skills developed differently, as I only recognise words as a whole (or in part) and just know a lot of words.

Quote:Huh. That's really interesting. Is it that you may expect one response and get another or that you don't have any expectations as to what the response should be?
No. We just use words and explicit gestures for communication. That is it. Normal people use intonation, tiny eye movements, other gestures and a bunch of very, very difficult other things to perceive explicitly. When a person who does not use those methods of communication, normal people will interpret whatever they are doing in that way. So, a person with AS normally seems stiff or robotic to a normal person, because we are using words only for communication. People with AS do not perceive it usually.

Quote: ;D My boyfriend's family is from Ireland. There's still tension about it. They won't even drink Black and Tan beer.
I have an Irish long sword and whenever someone with an English last name comes to the door, they are greeted with it.

Quote:If that's the case, then I guess the frequency with which autism occurs may be a pretty good support for the idea of much of it being a continuum of personalities and quirkiness and not so much a disorder.
Asperger's Syndrome, yes. I think it is as high as 1 in 100.
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#28
As a writer, I observe people in a lot of situations.  I look at interaction a lot, because I tend to write books where the main plot is about the relationships between people (friends and family as well as romance).  I look at what makes a person (or character) appear kind, blunt, etc so that I can duplicate that in a book. 

One of the things I've noticed about people who describe themselves as AS is that they tend (at least during online interaction) to be very direct and make pronouncements without any introduction.  Other people tend to add more "filler" words to their posts, which softens the blow and makes things seem more tactful.  It also helps people understand where you are coming from, so they don't take things the wrong way.

For example, if someone were to post that their feet hurt, someone with AS might say "get shoes that fit" while someone else might say "my feet used to hurt a lot, but then I got my feet checked out, and it turns out that my shoes didn't fit well.  Maybe you should make sure that the width and arch support fit correctly, because that could make a huge difference."  The first comes across as accusing the person of wearing ill fitting shoes and being at fault.  The second suggests that this MAY be the cause, and comes across as a more caring statement because the poster is showing empathy.

It seems like people with AS feel that both messages above are the same thing, while to other people one is offensive and the other is helpful and kind.  Granted, it is just an example, and I don't mean to offend anyone by it.
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#29
(07-05-2010, 04:02 AM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: One of the things I've noticed about people who describe themselves as AS is that they tend (at least during online interaction) to be very direct and make pronouncements without any introduction.  Other people tend to add more "filler" words to their posts, which softens the blow and makes things seem more tactful. 
Or just waters down their point.

"Excuse me sir. I couldn't help but notice, not that I'm staring at you, that your trousers seem to be in a state disagreeable to you. In other words, your pants are on fire".

Quote:It also helps people understand where you are coming from, so they don't take things the wrong way.
That is very true. However, normal people are exactly like SAPs in this. They don't explain themselves either.

Quote:It seems like people with AS feel that both messages above are the same thing, while to other people one is offensive and the other is helpful and kind.  Granted, it is just an example, and I don't mean to offend anyone by it.
Your statements here also apply to men and women.

Men focus on solving the problem and women on the feelings. When a man tells me his feet hurt, he probably would be happy to get a solution for it. If a women tells me, I clam up and listen to her thoughts on the matter because even if I had the solution, that is not what she wants.

There is a theory that SAP just have an extreme male personality (all the personality traits more strongly in males than females are emphasised). This is sensible because a very large majority of known SAPs are males (for some reason, although there is a possibly it is less likely to be diagnosed, but my experiences confirm that SAPs are more likely to be male).
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#30
You're over-generalizing on both counts.  Oh course,  if a man's pants are on fire, you shout and or throw water on him.  In general discourse, however, especially online where it isn't possible to see a person's expression or hear their tone of voice, it is much better to soften the blow.  Otherwise, a poster could be seen as rude.

As for the men vs women re advice thing...maybe I'm an atypical woman, but if I go to someone with a problem, I'd like a solution, and most of my female friends are like this.
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