Pot? Mortal sin? Sin at all?
#21
(07-11-2010, 03:13 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 02:47 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 02:13 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-10-2010, 11:45 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: This was recognised very early: http://www.laits.utexas.edu/poltheory/ja...laste.html

That document appears neither objective, nor scientific.

It looks like propaganda to me.

So? King James I of England wrote it. What did you expect?

Well, based on the context in which you posted the link, I expected some sort of scientific objective analysis that organically grown, naturally cured tobacco contains harmful chemicals - thus substantiating your attempted refutation of my statement that organic natural tobacco is harmless.

The idea was in King James I of England's day, there was no such concern. It was all natural.

Two popes and some other governments of the world also saw health problems with it, and it was all natural.

The concerns about it are not modern. It isn't some abused natural substance. There was always a concern about it for those who thought about it.
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#22
(07-11-2010, 03:17 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 03:13 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 02:47 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 02:13 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-10-2010, 11:45 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: This was recognised very early: http://www.laits.utexas.edu/poltheory/ja...laste.html

That document appears neither objective, nor scientific.

It looks like propaganda to me.

So? King James I of England wrote it. What did you expect?

Well, based on the context in which you posted the link, I expected some sort of scientific objective analysis that organically grown, naturally cured tobacco contains harmful chemicals - thus substantiating your attempted refutation of my statement that organic natural tobacco is harmless.

The idea was in King James I of England's day, there was no such concern. It was all natural.

Two popes and some other governments of the world also saw health problems with it, and it was all natural.

The concerns about it are not modern. It isn't some abused natural substance. There was always a concern about it for those who thought about it.

Why do you have such an animus aginst tobacco?

As G.K Chesterton said(may be a paraphrase or a quote): "there is no contradiction between a pipe , a pint and a prayer".


Maybe some day in heaven I will light one up wth Pope St.Pius the X

As to the ops question I am not sure, but I suspect if we were all not subjected to the propaganda about this herb it would be seen to be similar to alcohol.


On American Morals
by G. K. Chesterton:

http://www.fisheaters.com/onamericanmorals.html


 

   
America is sometimes offered to us, even by Americans (who ought to know better), as a moral example. There are indeed very real American virtues; but this virtuous attitude is hardly one of them. And if anyone wants to know what a welter of weakness and inconsequence the moral mind of America can sometimes be, he may be advised to look, not so much to the Crime Wave or the Charleston, as to the serious idealistic essays by highbrows and cultural critics, such as one by Miss Avis D. Carlson on "Wanted: A Substitute for Righteousness." By righteousness she means, of course, the narrow New England taboos; but she does not know it. For the inference she draws is that we should recognize frankly that "the standard abstract right and wrong is moribund." This statement will seem less insane if we consider, somewhat curiously, what the standard abstract right and wrong seems to mean--at least in her section of the States. It is a glimpse of an incredible world.

She takes the case of a young man brought up "in a home where there was an attempt to make dogmatic cleavage of right and wrong." And what was the dogmatic cleavage? Ah, what indeed! His elders told him that some things were right and some wrong; and for some time he accepted this strange assertion. But when he leaves home he finds that, "apparently perfectly nice people do the things he has been taught to think evil." Then follows a revelation. "The flowerlike girl he envelops in a mist of romantic idealization smokes like an imp from the lower regions and pets like a movie vamp. The chum his heart yearns towards cultivates a hip-flask, etc." And this is what the writer calls a dogmatic cleavage between right and wrong!

The standard of abstract right and wrong apparently is this. That a girl by smoking a cigarette makes herself one of the company of the fiends of hell. That such an action is much the same as that of a sexual vampire. That a young man who continues to drink fermented liquor must necessarily be "evil" and must deny the very existence of any difference between right and wrong. That is the "standard of abstract right and wrong" that is apparently taught in the American home. And it is perfectly obvious, on the face of it, that it is not a standard of abstract right or wrong at all. That is exactly what it is not. That is the very last thing any clear-headed person would call it. It is not a standard; it is not abstract; it has not the vaguest notion of what is meant by right and wrong. It is a chaos of social and sentimental accidents and associations, some of them snobbish, all of them provincial, but, above all, nearly all of them concrete and connected with a materialistic prejudice against particular materials. To have a horror of tobacco is not to have an abstract standard of right; but exactly the opposite. It is to have no standard of right whatever; and to make certain local likes and dislikes as a substitute. We need not be very surprised if the young man repudiates these meaningless vetoes as soon as he can; but if he thinks he is repudiating morality, he must be almost as muddle-headed as his father. And yet the writer in question calmly proposes that we should abolish all ideas of right and wrong, and abandon the whole human conception of a standard of abstract justice, because a boy in Boston cannot be induced to think that a nice girl is a devil when she smokes a cigarette.

If the rising generation were faced with no worse doubts and difficulties than this, it would not be very difficult to reconcile them to the traditions of truth and justice. But I think the episode is worth mentioning, merely because it throws a ray of light on the moral condition of American Culture, in the decay of Puritanism. And when next we are told that the idealism of America is to set a "standard" by which England must transform herself, it will be well to remember what is apparently meant by a standard and an ideal; and that the fire of idealism seems both to begin and end in smoke.

Icidentally, I must say I can bear witness to this queer taboo about tobacco. Of course numberless Americans smoke numberless cigars; a great many others eat cigars, which seems to me a more occult pleasure. But there does exist an extraordinary idea that ethics are involved in some way; and many who smoke really disapprove of smoking. I remember once receiving two American interviewers on the same afternoon; there was a box of cigars in front of me and I offered one to each in turn. Their reaction (as they would probably call it) was very curious to watch. The first journalist stiffened suddenly and silently and declined in a very cold voice. He could not have conveyed more plainly that I had attempted to corrupt an honorable man with a foul and infamous indulgence; as if I were the Old Man of the Mountain offering him hashish that would turn him into an assassin. The second reaction was even more remarkable. The second journalist first looked doubtful; then looked sly; then seemed to glance about him nervously, as if wondering whether we were alone, and then said with a sort of crestfallen and covert smile: "Well, Mr. Chesterton, I'm afraid I have the habit."

As I also have the habit, and have never been able to imagine how it could be connected with morality or immorality, I confess that I plunged with him deeply into an immoral life. In the course of our conversation, I found he was otherwise perfectly sane. He was quite intelligent about economics or architecture; but his moral sense seemed to have entirely disappeared. He really thought it rather wicked to smoke. He had no "standard of abstract right or wrong"; in him it was not merely moribund; it was apparently dead. But anyhow, that is the point and that is the test. Nobody who has an abstract standard of right and wrong can possibly think it wrong to smoke a cigar. But he had a concrete standard of particular cut and dried customs of a particular tribe. Those who say Americans are largely descended from the American Indians might certainly make a case out of the suggestion that this mystical horror of material things is largely a barbaric sentiment. The Red Indian is said to have tried and condemned a tomahawk for committing a murder. In this case he was certainly the prototype of the white man who curses a bottle because too much of it goes into a man. Prohibition is sometimes praised for its simplicity; on these lines it may be equally condemned for its savagery. But I myself do not say anything so absurd as that Americans are savages; nor do I think it would matter much if they were descended from savages. It is culture that counts and not ethnology; and the culture that is concerned here derives indirectly rather from New England than from Old America. Whatever it derives from, however, this is the thing to be noted about it: that it really does not seem to understand what is meant by a standard of right and wrong. It is a vague sentimental notion that certain habits were not suitable to the old log cabin or the old hometown. It has a vague utilitarian notion that certain habits are not directly useful in the new amalgamated stores or the new financial gambling-hell. If his aged mother or his economic master dislikes to see a young man hanging about with a pipe in his mouth, the action becomes a sin; or the nearest that such a moral philosophy can come to the idea of a sin. A man does not chop wood for the log hut by smoking; and a man does not make dividends for the Big Boss by smoking; and therefore smoking has a smell as of something sinful. Of what the great theologians and moral philosophers have meant by a sin, these people have no more idea than a child drinking milk has of a great toxicologist analyzing poisons. It may be a credit of their virtue to be thus vague about vice. The man who is silly enough to say, when offered a cigarette, "I have no vices," may not always deserve the rapier-thrust of the reply given by the Italian Cardinal, "It is not a vice, or doubtless you would have it." But at least the Cardinal knows it is not a vice; which assists the clarity of his mind. But the lack of clear standards among those who vaguely think of it as a vice may yet be the beginning of much peril and oppression. My two American journalists, between them, may yet succeed in adding the sinfulness of cigars to the other curious things now part of the American Constitution.

I would therefore venture to say to Miss Avis Carlson that the quarrel in question does not arise from the Yankee Puritans having too much morality, but from their having too little. It does not arise from their drawing too hard and fast a line of distinction between right and wrong, but from their being much to loose and indistinct. They go by associations and not by abstractions. Therefore they classify smoking with vamping or a flask in the pocket with sin in the soul. I hope at least that some of the Fundamentalists will succeed in being a little more fundamental than this. The men of Tennessee are supposed to be very anxious to draw the line between men and monkeys. They are also supposed by some to be rather too anxious to draw the line between black men and white men. May I be allowed to hope that they will succeed in drawing a rather more logical line between bad men and good men? Something of the the difference and the difficulty may be seen by comparing the old Ku Klux Klan with the new Klu Klux Klan. The old secret society may have been justified or not; but it had a definite object: it was directed against somebody. The new secret society seems to have been directed against anybody; often against anybody who drank; in time, for all I know, against anybody who smoked. It is this sort of formless fanaticism that is the great danger of the American Temperament; and it is well to insist that if men must persecute, they will be more clear-headed if they persecute for a creed.



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#23
(07-11-2010, 03:17 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 03:13 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 02:47 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 02:13 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-10-2010, 11:45 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: This was recognised very early: http://www.laits.utexas.edu/poltheory/ja...laste.html

That document appears neither objective, nor scientific.

It looks like propaganda to me.

So? King James I of England wrote it. What did you expect?

Well, based on the context in which you posted the link, I expected some sort of scientific objective analysis that organically grown, naturally cured tobacco contains harmful chemicals - thus substantiating your attempted refutation of my statement that organic natural tobacco is harmless.

The idea was in King James I of England's day, there was no such concern. It was all natural.

Two popes and some other governments of the world also saw health problems with it, and it was all natural.

The concerns about it are not modern. It isn't some abused natural substance. There was always a concern about it for those who thought about it.

Where is your proof? Can you demonstrate statistical evidence of illness/mortality rate (for tobacco-related illnesses only) in Native American, English, European or other heavy tobacco consumers within the given time frame?
Of those statistics, please isolate or note cases which can be proven to have been caused solely by tobacco use (in other words, the only figures which are actually able to substantiate your claims) and also please supply this information with cases categorised by nationality, as documented evidence shows historically several distinct differences in the curing and preparative methods applied to tobacco, throughout different nations.
In fact, noxious tinctures were applied to aid the curing process in most British and European tobacco products, even in James I's day.
I'm eagerly awaiting the statistical data on the Native American nationalities, as generally they utilised natural air-cure methods when preparing plucked leaves for consumption.

Now, granted, you refer to "people seeing concerns" with this particular product. That is not a logical argument, nor is it substantiated, and furthermore you have failed to supply any scientific, substantiating evidence to support your claims.
At this point, you are arguing on what appears to be nothing more than anecdotal evidence, based on speculations by people who merely formed opinions and sought no further evidence to confirm or deny their theories.

So. Let's see your evidence, please.
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#24
Nice Article Sheep from Chesterton....I always feel less stressed when I read his stuff. I would've loved to down a pint and smoke a cigar with him! :w2go:
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#25
(07-11-2010, 07:17 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 03:17 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 03:13 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 02:47 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-11-2010, 02:13 AM)Arun Wrote:
(07-10-2010, 11:45 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: This was recognised very early: http://www.laits.utexas.edu/poltheory/ja...laste.html

That document appears neither objective, nor scientific.

It looks like propaganda to me.

So? King James I of England wrote it. What did you expect?

Well, based on the context in which you posted the link, I expected some sort of scientific objective analysis that organically grown, naturally cured tobacco contains harmful chemicals - thus substantiating your attempted refutation of my statement that organic natural tobacco is harmless.

The idea was in King James I of England's day, there was no such concern. It was all natural.

Two popes and some other governments of the world also saw health problems with it, and it was all natural.

The concerns about it are not modern. It isn't some abused natural substance. There was always a concern about it for those who thought about it.

Where is your proof? Can you demonstrate statistical evidence of illness/mortality rate (for tobacco-related illnesses only) in Native American, English, European or other heavy tobacco consumers within the given time frame?
Of those statistics, please isolate or note cases which can be proven to have been caused solely by tobacco use (in other words, the only figures which are actually able to substantiate your claims) and also please supply this information with cases categorised by nationality, as documented evidence shows historically several distinct differences in the curing and preparative methods applied to tobacco, throughout different nations.
In fact, noxious tinctures were applied to aid the curing process in most British and European tobacco products, even in James I's day.
I'm eagerly awaiting the statistical data on the Native American nationalities, as generally they utilised natural air-cure methods when preparing plucked leaves for consumption.

Now, granted, you refer to "people seeing concerns" with this particular product. That is not a logical argument, nor is it substantiated, and furthermore you have failed to supply any scientific, substantiating evidence to support your claims.
At this point, you are arguing on what appears to be nothing more than anecdotal evidence, based on speculations by people who merely formed opinions and sought no further evidence to confirm or deny their theories.

So. Let's see your evidence, please.
yes but isnt ingestion by inhalation through the lungs UN AVOIDABLY physically damaging...no matter how natural or pure the leaf being burned?
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#26
What evidence has led you to the formation of that conclusion?

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#27
(07-11-2010, 12:19 AM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(07-10-2010, 11:52 PM)DrBombay Wrote: What are we, Puritans?  Bah.  Next you'll be telling me gambling is a sin. Bah.  Bah, I say.   :bronxcheer:

Yeah, and a quick masturb isn't a problem either.

While we are at it, let us watch Twilight.

Pervert.  How dare you speak that way in front of ladies!!  Never in my life have I used the word "Twilight" in front of a female.  I'm outraged!!! Outraged I say!!!  :censored:
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#28
Obedience to civil authority is an obligation.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm

Civil authority is of God, not by any revelation or positive institution, but by the mere fact that God is the Author of Nature, and Nature imperatively requires civil authority to be set up and obeyed.

God....bind(s) men in conscience to observe the behests of the State within the sphere of its competence.
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#29
(07-11-2010, 02:41 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Obedience to civil authority is an obligation.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm

Civil authority is of God, not by any revelation or positive institution, but by the mere fact that God is the Author of Nature, and Nature imperatively requires civil authority to be set up and obeyed.

God....bind(s) men in conscience to observe the behests of the State within the sphere of its competence.

Who says regulating the sale of drugs is within the competence of the State?
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#30
(07-11-2010, 02:41 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Obedience to civil authority is an obligation.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm

Civil authority is of God, not by any revelation or positive institution, but by the mere fact that God is the Author of Nature, and Nature imperatively requires civil authority to be set up and obeyed.

God....bind(s) men in conscience to observe the behests of the State within the sphere of its competence.

A government agency is the one who bans it usually. It is regulated by the FDA. Is the FDA our government?
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