Holy Father Says Old Mass Privately Says Bishop Fellay
#21
(07-16-2010, 03:37 PM)ketchum Wrote: Would you tell me what the words mean?

Adorazione - Adoration

Propiziazone - Propitiation (appeasement)

Ringraziamento - Thanksgiving

Impetrazione - Impetration (petition)


Beautiful picture by the way!

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#22
(07-16-2010, 07:38 PM)Joshua Wrote:
(07-16-2010, 03:37 PM)ketchum Wrote: Would you tell me what the words mean?

Adorazione - Adoration

Propiziazone - Propitiation (appeasement)

Ringraziamento - Thanksgiving

Impetrazione - Impetration (petition)


Beautiful picture by the way!


Easy way to remember these four ends of prayer (and the Mass in particular), in order of importance, in English:  ARTS

Adoration
Reparation
Thanksgiving
Supplication (Petition)
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#23
If the pope is so crazy about the TLM why doesn't he say so in an encylical or something?

We're supposed to believe the pope is some kind of closet traditionalist.

Its called keeping the sheep in the fold.

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#24
When will the pope "come out"?
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#25
It should be remembered that the Pope says a private Low Mass just like any bishop would, so this is easy for him to do, just as Popes have done for centuries.

The Solemn Papal Mass is an entirely different matter. We are not just talking about a Solemn Pontifical Mass. The ceremonies are hugely complex and require dozens of people from various ranks (some of which no longer exist). For the Pope to celebrate such a Mass would end up setting a brand new precedent in how these positions are filled. In the last 500 years of the Church, no Pope has offered the traditional Mass like a Solemn Pontifical Mass, so if the Pope were to do this it would be a huge break from tradition.

Thus, the Pope has to go about this prudently. Eventually we will likely see such a solemn ceremony, but it is not as simple as it seems.

What would be more prudent is for the Pope to offer a public Papal Recited Mass (much like Popes occasionally did before). Barring that, the Pope could arrange for a Cardinal to offer a Solemn Pontifical Mass at which he would attend at the throne. His presence alone would make the statement many are desiring.

At the same point, clearly the Pope has made himself clear that the traditional Mass is of undeniable spiritual value with his Motu Proprio.

As Bishop Fellay said and wrote, the Church is a huge ship. We are seeing the Pope and others recognizing we're headed the wrong direction, and making a course correction, but a shop does not turn on a dime. If sudden moves are made without prudence, the result could be many more leaving the Church than would if things were repaired with some prudence and thought. Imagine how many people would voluntarily cut themselves off from the Sacraments if some of the drastic measures we think are needed were implemented.

When I was young we used to go crabbing. You throw some nicely rotting chicken on a line to the bottom of the river and then when a crab grabs on, you very slowly and gently pull it up and when you're just below the surface you nab the crab. If you pull too hard the crab lets go, if you do nothing, you don't catch any crabs. Similarly, if you want to make a liberal Catholic into a good Catholic, tugging will just get him to leave, while slow steady changes he may not like, but which don't push him over the edge, may eventually convert him.
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#26
(07-16-2010, 08:49 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: It should be remembered that the Pope says a private Low Mass just like any bishop would, so this is easy for him to do, just as Popes have done for centuries.

The Solemn Papal Mass is an entirely different matter. We are not just talking about a Solemn Pontifical Mass. The ceremonies are hugely complex and require dozens of people from various ranks (some of which no longer exist). For the Pope to celebrate such a Mass would end up setting a brand new precedent in how these positions are filled. In the last 500 years of the Church, no Pope has offered the traditional Mass like a Solemn Pontifical Mass, so if the Pope were to do this it would be a huge break from tradition.

I've seen this argument before, and I don't think it's persuasive.  The pope is a diocesan bishop, and he needs to be able to celebrate a Solemn Mass like other bishops can.  If "the ceremonies [of a Solemn Papal Mass]...require dozens of people from various ranks (some of which no longer exist)", then the rubrics need to be changed to adapt to reality. The answer is not to say that the Pope is now unable to celebrate a Mass with even the level of solemnity that is available to an ordinary bishop.
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#27
(07-16-2010, 09:08 PM)spasiisochrani Wrote:
(07-16-2010, 08:49 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: It should be remembered that the Pope says a private Low Mass just like any bishop would, so this is easy for him to do, just as Popes have done for centuries.

The Solemn Papal Mass is an entirely different matter. We are not just talking about a Solemn Pontifical Mass. The ceremonies are hugely complex and require dozens of people from various ranks (some of which no longer exist). For the Pope to celebrate such a Mass would end up setting a brand new precedent in how these positions are filled. In the last 500 years of the Church, no Pope has offered the traditional Mass like a Solemn Pontifical Mass, so if the Pope were to do this it would be a huge break from tradition.

I've seen this argument before, and I don't think it's persuasive.  The pope is a diocesan bishop, and he needs to be able to celebrate a Solemn Mass like other bishops can.  If "the ceremonies [of a Solemn Papal Mass]...require dozens of people from various ranks (some of which no longer exist)", then the rubrics need to be changed to adapt to reality. They answer is not to say that the Pope is now unable to celebrate a Mass with even the level of solemnity that is available to an ordinary bishop.

Or create again those ranks that no longer exist!

It shouldn't be that difficult, should it? Harder things have been accomplished.
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#28
(07-16-2010, 08:49 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: As Bishop Fellay said and wrote, the Church is a huge ship. We are seeing the Pope and others recognizing we're headed the wrong direction, and making a course correction, but a shop does not turn on a dime. If sudden moves are made without prudence, the result could be many more leaving the Church than would if things were repaired with some prudence and thought. Imagine how many people would voluntarily cut themselves off from the Sacraments if some of the drastic measures we think are needed were implemented.

Yes, imagine how many people would leave if we went back to the formula that worked for more than a thousand years. Somehow I think the people that are still going to the NO would go no matter what, if everything that went down in the last thirty years didn't get rid of them nothing will, even "drastric measures."
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#29
In context means, setting the book where he wrote it, or setting the place and time where and when he said it. This is what I never found.

Here I found the word 'banal', but this refers not to the Mass itself, but how it is abused.

Quote:Yet because -- necessarily, and more and more clearly -- people's judgements as to what is pastorally effective are widely divergent, the "pastoral" aspect has become the point at which "creativity" breaks in, destroying the unity of the Liturgy and very often confronting us with something deplorably banal. That is not to deny that the Eucharistic Liturgy, and likewise the Liturgy of the Word, is often celebrated reverently, and "beautifully" in the best sense, on the basis of people's faith. Yet since we are looking for the criteria of reform, we do also have to mention the dangers, which unfortunately in the last few decades have by no means remained just the imaginings of those traditionalists opposed to reform.

http://www.adoremus.org/1104OrganicLiturgy.html

(07-16-2010, 06:36 PM)timoose Wrote: Here's Cardinal Ratzinger's words;

    Pope Benedict XVI has voiced his own reservations about the New Mass of Paul VI. Years ago, then-Cardinal Ratzinger lamented that he had hoped the liturgical reforms of Vatican II would draw from the riches of liturgical tradition, instead, he said, we “can only stand, deeply sorrowing, before the ruins of the very things that (we) were concerned for.”

      Of the New Mass, Cardinal Ratzinger said, “in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries and replaced it — as in a manufacturing process — with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/070707.asp

That's where I found it but I've seen it in lots of places.
tim
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#30
Here's a quote for you.

Denouncing those who oppose Vatican II: "We must be on guard against minimizing these movements. Without a doubt, they represent a sectarian zealotry that is the antithesis of Catholicity. We cannot resist them too firmly."
(Citation Info: Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology, Ignatius Press, 1987, pp. 389-90; German original: Katholische Prinzipienlehre, 1982)
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