Holy Father Says Old Mass Privately Says Bishop Fellay
#51
(07-17-2010, 04:26 PM)3Sanctus Wrote: @glgas

Are you ignoring the shrinkage that followed Vatican II?  The many people who left the Church, stopped attending Mass, and who fell into heresy because they thought "we don't teach that anymore"?

Which shrinkage?

The 2 million from 600 million (the remnant of the traditionalists and traditionals) ?

or the 600 million to 1200 million worldwide, (which is some minimal shrinkage related to the increase of the population)?
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#52
(07-17-2010, 04:46 PM)glgas Wrote: Which shrinkage?

The 2 million from 600 million (the remnant of the traditionalists and traditionals) ?

or the 600 million to 1200 million worldwide, (which is some minimal shrinkage related to the increase of the population)?

http://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven.

The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million -- from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.
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#53
3Sanctus, (or because of it) was Michael Davies and I didn't catch that ! Mea culpa !
tim
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#54
@timoose

Thanks, I figured it was editorializing on someone's part, but I wanted to make sure.

@glgas

i think Gerard did a pretty decent job of describing the sort of thing I was getting at.
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#55
(07-17-2010, 05:54 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(07-17-2010, 04:46 PM)glgas Wrote: Which shrinkage?

The 2 million from 600 million (the remnant of the traditionalists and traditionals) ?

or the 600 million to 1200 million worldwide, (which is some minimal shrinkage related to the increase of the population)?

http://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven.

The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million -- from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

Gerard, while I agree with what you've posted, and surely Vatican II is in part to blame, but I still believe with no Vatican II there would have been a decline anyway.  Imagine if say, Cardinal Francis Spellman was elected Pope instead of John XXIII, with either no Vatican II period or even a 'right wing' Vatican II, with Spellman or someone else at the helm probably would have included a forceful denouncing of communism for instance.   It wouldnt  change the fact that the world has already been slipping into secularism for decades prior to that.
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#56
(07-17-2010, 08:48 PM)Robert De Brus Wrote: But I still believe with no Vatican II there would have been a decline anyway. 

I agree completely. Change was everywhere; the revolution was inevitable.
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#57
(07-17-2010, 05:54 PM)Gerard Wrote: Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

The fact what you have to explain that in 1965 58,000 priest celebrated TLM Mass, in 2010 only 387, and most of them in small shrines and with few faithful around them

The reasons for the setback of the religion are

- the mostly rural communities moved twice, first to the cities then to the suburbs, and people lost their tradition.

- In 1900 the Mass was the main social attraction on most of the Sundays, social gathering, spending time together, this completely changed

- the Church  lost the media, it was taken over by godless and anti-religion forces, the sex, the violence, the greed is the dominant cultural environment

- God and the religion was legally banished from the public life, starting with the Church

Vatican II was an attempt to diminish the results of these changes and if you compare the number of the traditional masses with the number of the New Masses, the XXI Ecumenical council made a good job. You have to see the realities, not the dreams.
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#58
(07-17-2010, 08:48 PM)Robert De Brus Wrote: Gerard, while I agree with what you've posted, and surely Vatican II is in part to blame, but I still believe with no Vatican II there would have been a decline anyway.  Imagine if say, Cardinal Francis Spellman was elected Pope instead of John XXIII, with either no Vatican II period or even a 'right wing' Vatican II, with Spellman or someone else at the helm probably would have included a forceful denouncing of communism for instance.   It wouldnt  change the fact that the world has already been slipping into secularism for decades prior to that.

Well, we can speculate all we want I suppose.  But we could just as well speculate that had the Church reaffirmed her teachings in a traditional way and taken a strong stance against the errors of Communism.  For example listed them in a new Syllabus and incorporated teaching against them, the 60s may have been a very different decade and God's grace would have flowed more abundantly in our efforts.  LeFebvre may have been made a Cardinal and been elected Pope.  Siri might have accepted the papacy,  Bishop Williamson could be primate of England or Secretary of State for the Vatican right now.   

If the Council had been "right wing" or "traditionally Catholic" it could have caught that slipping before it went over the edge. 

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#59
(07-17-2010, 09:46 PM)Gerard Wrote: Siri might have accepted the papacy, 

You believe in the Siri Thesis?  I understand there are two versions of it now, one, that some believe he wouldnt accept the Papacy; or, that he did but was 'secret' Pope for 30+ years. 
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#60
(07-17-2010, 09:10 PM)glgas Wrote: The fact what you have to explain that in 1965 58,000 priest celebrated TLM Mass, in 2010 only 387, and most of them in small shrines and with few faithful around them

There was a delberate effort to suppress the TLM illegally.  Had the Novus Ordo and the TLM been put on equal footing at any time, the Novus Ordo would have drifted away very quickly. 

Quote: The reasons for the setback of the religion are

- the mostly rural communities moved twice, first to the cities then to the suburbs, and people lost their tradition.

No. There was quite a traditional presence in the suburbs.  The Church, convent and rectory were a significant part of the community.  The nuns were in a tailspin and the lay teachers were teaching things contradictory to the nuns and the faith. 

I remember in about 1975 the kids in my 3rd grade class vocally complained to the teacher about the Mass.  They said it was boring.  The teacher went into a long diatribe about how "this mass was made especially for you."  " A few years ago, the Mass was in Latin and the priest had his back to you.  You should appreciate what the Church has done for you." 

Quote:  - In 1900 the Mass was the main social attraction on most of the Sundays, social gathering, spending time together, this completely changed

When and why? 

Quote:  - the Church  lost the media, it was taken over by godless and anti-religion forces, the sex, the violence, the greed is the dominant cultural environment

And after Vatican II, the Church ceded the ground.  You never had trouble finding Protestant television when I was a child. 

Quote:  - God and the religion was legally banished from the public life, starting with the Church

And Vatican II provided the Church with no weapons to fight against that banishment. 

Quote: Vatican II was an attempt to diminish the results of these changes and if you compare the number of the traditional masses with the number of the New Masses, the XXI Ecumenical council made a good job. You have to see the realities, not the dreams.

Most of those changes came on the heels of changes at Vatican II,  when it became prevalent that even the Church would change, the idea became popular that anything and then everything had to change. 

Comparing the number of TLMs with the number of Novus Ordos in raw number is not fair and you know it.  There was an illegal suppression of the TLM,  it was no longer taught in the Seminaries, Latin itself was no longer taught, anyone who did exhibit a public desire to say the TLM was persecuted.  Many priests who say the Novus Ordo, want to learn the TLM but are discouraged, transferred, etc. 

Had every diocese had a bishop like Castro de Mayer in Brazil, the Novus Ordo would have never sputtered along like it has, whithering away and living on the credit bought for it by the traditional Church. 
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