Holy Father Says Old Mass Privately Says Bishop Fellay
#71
(07-18-2010, 01:00 PM)3Sanctus Wrote: How did Fr. Martin find out about Cardinal Siri supposedly declining the Papacy?  Who broke the seal of the conclave?  If they believed it was right to break the conclave's seal to tell Fr. Martin, then why wasn't this made more public?  Surely of all those Cardinals who voted for Cardinal Siri (if this theory is true) at least some would have publicly defended him.

I think it was Brian Doran in his memorial to Fr. Martin that mentioned that Fr. Martin had been a secretary at the 63 Conclave.  I don't have verification on that, but it would be a good explanation.  The other would be Fr. Martin's amazing ability to get reportage from the Vatican.  Archbishop LeFebvre was stunned at the accuracy of Fr. Martin's description of his meeting with Paul VI as described in "the Final Conclave."

Conclave seals seem to be the most easily broken.  The election of St. Pius X is almost a minute by minute account with all the details that flooded out after that conclave.  We also know a lot about the various vote tallies etc. 

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#72
[quote='Gerard' pid='589680' dateline='1279418577']

There was a delberate effort to suppress the TLM illegally.  Had the Novus Ordo and the TLM been put on equal footing at any time, the Novus Ordo would have drifted away very quickly. 

[quote]

The suppression of the TLM was quite open and legal. Except for old priest with special indults, every priest should celebrate the New Mass. However there was no pushing from the Vatican neither for the people facing altars, nor for the variations of the penitential rite at the beginning or the different Canon.
In Hungary in the majority of the Churches the New Mass was celebrated similar to the masses what the St John Cantius Fathers celebrate: east facing altar, always the confiteor and the Roman Canon, traditional hymns (in Hungary this was centuries old vernacular), communion kneeling and into tongue, confessions before and if there was available priest during the Mass. Until 1990 there was no real difference related to the TLM

In the west the changes and local novelties were made for local request, either by the priest or the Liturgical committees, and strictly against the declaration of the Council.

As for the reasons of the alienation from the Church you have to go be to the time before the television, the malls, the everywhere available movie theaters., and think what could people do Sunday morning. Even the pubs were closed, you were not able to get drink neither.

The fact that many TLM mass is celebrated in half empty Churches is the proof that the TLM, the form has no mystical power. As keeping the law did not pulled God to the side of the pharisees, neither the TLM pulls him to the side of the traditionalist? As the pharisee did not recognized the real presence of Jesus Christ, so some traditionalist do not recognize His real presence in His mystical body, and Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. .
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#73
Newvatican Contradicts SSPX's Superior General's Lie
Papal Press Secretary Officially Confirms that Benedict-Ratzinger Never Says the "Motu" Mess

From: The Fathers

Fellay Recently Lied that Benedict-Ratzinger Performed the "Motu" Mess in Private
Whereas the Papal Press Secretary Publicly Denied the Report
And Categorically Stated that Benedict-Ratzinger Always Uses the Novus Ordo

The degree to which the pseudo-traditionalists try to make out Benedict-Ratzinger as having traditionalist sympathies truly boggles the mind. Even Bernie Fellay, the Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) was caught recently in an outright lie on this point. "The Holy [sic] Father celebrates the old Mass privately," said Fellay during a speech in Bahia, Brazil, on July 8, 2010.

It is difficult to believe that Fellay was ignorant of the fact that when that disinformation first appeared, ten days after Benedict-Ratzinger released his "Motu" Proprior of July 7, 2007, which allowed his Novus Ordo Church, to a very limited degree, to use the Conciliar Bugnini Mess of 1962-2009+, it drew a strong denial from the Papal Press Secretary, Federico Lombardi, who stated categorically that reports Benedict-Ratzinger performs the "Motu" Mess of 1962-2009+ in his private chapel are false.

Countering news reports that Benedict-Ratzinger celebrated the "Motu" Mess privately, the Papal Press Secretary confirmed that Benedict-Ratzinger performs a morning Novus Ordo Mess, using the Novus Ordo's Third Edition of 2002. He specifically denied that Newpope used the "Motu" Mess. Lomardi explained: "The confusion probably was caused by our footage of the pope celebrating facing the altar, which is due to the fact that the altar is against the wall" in the private chapel of the Apostolic Palace. Moreover, Lombardi confirmed just how completely Novus Ordo Benedict-Ratzinger is at his private Mess. He confirmed that two private secretaries concelebrate the papal Mess each morning. Lombardi explained that this fact "obviously means he is using the new Missal," since traditionally concelebration is prohibited, except for the traditional Mass of sacerdotal ordination and episcopal consecration.

Fellay's lie is apparently all part of his Hindenburg Plan to soften up SSPXers to sell out to the New Order by coating the sellout with a little Latin. Surely under Bernie Fellay the honesty, reputation, and traditional principles of the SSPX have fallen precipitously since the demise of its founder, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. [Some information for this Commentary was contributed by the Vatican Information Service.]

from traditio
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#74
(07-19-2010, 06:29 PM)artificial person Wrote: from traditio

So we can safely ignore it.

And like many sedes, the whole article is full of uncharitable language throughout.
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#75
Either Fr. Lombardi said that the Pope privately uses the Novus Ordo, contradicting Bishop Fellay's assessment, or he did not say it.

Don't dismiss something outright just because you don't trust the source (Traditio in this case).
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#76
Press secretaries are slightly more reliable than "Fr" Moderator.
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#77
Uncharitable language aside, either the Vatican Press secretary is telling the truth or Bishop Fellay is. Sounds like Lombardi was pretty clear that Pope Benedict does not say the traditional mass.

"Countering news reports that Benedict-Ratzinger celebrated the "Motu" Mess privately, the Papal Press Secretary confirmed that Benedict-Ratzinger performs a morning Novus Ordo Mess, using the Novus Ordo's Third Edition of 2002. He specifically denied that Newpope used the "Motu" Mess. Lomardi explained: "The confusion probably was caused by our footage of the pope celebrating facing the altar, which is due to the fact that the altar is against the wall" in the private chapel of the Apostolic Palace. Moreover, Lombardi confirmed just how completely Novus Ordo Benedict-Ratzinger is at his private Mess. He confirmed that two private secretaries concelebrate the papal Mess each morning. Lombardi explained that this fact "obviously means he is using the new Missal," since traditionally concelebration is prohibited, except for the traditional Mass of sacerdotal ordination and episcopal consecration."
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#78
original source

Vatican spokesman: Pope concelebrates daily Mass using current missal

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI concelebrates his daily morning Mass in Italian using the current edition of the Roman Missal, the Vatican spokesman said.

Claims that the pope celebrates his private Mass using the Tridentine rite are incorrect, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi told Catholic News Service July 17.

The Tridentine Mass is the Latin-language liturgy that predates the Second Vatican Council; it was last revised in the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal.

Less than 10 days after Pope Benedict July 7 issued his letter and norms providing greater opportunity for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass, news reports claimed Pope Benedict already had been celebrating the old rite privately.

"The confusion probably was caused by our footage of the pope celebrating facing the altar, which is due to the fact that the altar is against the wall" in the private chapel of the Apostolic Palace, Father Lombardi said.

With the altar against the wall, the concelebrants in the private chapel end up having their backs toward the congregation during the eucharistic prayer. The congregation at the morning Mass generally is made up of the pope's valet and the consecrated women who staff the papal apartment.

The images Father Lombardi referred to were released by the Vatican to coincide with celebrations of Pope Benedict's 80th birthday April 16. Father Lombardi heads the Vatican Television Center, which produced the footage, as well as serving as director of the Vatican press office and Vatican Radio.

Father Lombardi also said the fact that the pope's two private secretaries concelebrate the Mass with him each morning "obviously means he is using the new Missal," since the Tridentine Mass strictly limits concelebration.


At public Masses with an international congregation, Pope Benedict uses the post-Vatican II Mass with most of the prayers in Latin. However, on occasions such as the feast of the Body and Blood of Christ, which is considered a Rome diocesan celebration although there is an international congregation, the pope recites the prayers in Italian.

END
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#79
Oops...
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#80
(07-19-2010, 07:26 PM)artificial person Wrote: original source

Vatican spokesman: Pope concelebrates daily Mass using current missal

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI concelebrates his daily morning Mass in Italian using the current edition of the Roman Missal, the Vatican spokesman said.

Claims that the pope celebrates his private Mass using the Tridentine rite are incorrect, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi told Catholic News Service July 17.

The Tridentine Mass is the Latin-language liturgy that predates the Second Vatican Council; it was last revised in the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal.

Less than 10 days after Pope Benedict July 7 issued his letter and norms providing greater opportunity for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass, news reports claimed Pope Benedict already had been celebrating the old rite privately.

"The confusion probably was caused by our footage of the pope celebrating facing the altar, which is due to the fact that the altar is against the wall" in the private chapel of the Apostolic Palace, Father Lombardi said.

With the altar against the wall, the concelebrants in the private chapel end up having their backs toward the congregation during the eucharistic prayer. The congregation at the morning Mass generally is made up of the pope's valet and the consecrated women who staff the papal apartment.

The images Father Lombardi referred to were released by the Vatican to coincide with celebrations of Pope Benedict's 80th birthday April 16. Father Lombardi heads the Vatican Television Center, which produced the footage, as well as serving as director of the Vatican press office and Vatican Radio.

Father Lombardi also said the fact that the pope's two private secretaries concelebrate the Mass with him each morning "obviously means he is using the new Missal," since the Tridentine Mass strictly limits concelebration.


At public Masses with an international congregation, Pope Benedict uses the post-Vatican II Mass with most of the prayers in Latin. However, on occasions such as the feast of the Body and Blood of Christ, which is considered a Rome diocesan celebration although there is an international congregation, the pope recites the prayers in Italian.

END

At worst, if this is true, this means that Fellay is just mistaken. I highly doubt he would knowingly lie about such a thing. 
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