Report on the decline of the New Mass in Latin in the U.S.
#11
(07-20-2010, 06:38 AM)jacobhalo Wrote: Yes, I've seen the NO Latin mass on EWTN.  It is a joke.

I agree, but I'm wondering your reasons for saying so.

As for the report, I didn't even know there were NO's being said in Latin anywhere.. News to me.
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#12
(07-20-2010, 02:58 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: As for the report, I didn't even know there were NO's being said in Latin anywhere.. News to me.

The Novus Ordo in Latin is what I'm most familiar with, and is the Mass I sing chant in most often, since chant is in demand every Sunday and on certain holy days. The local diocesan Tridentine community only allows for chant once in a while.

I wasn't aware that it had been declining quite that far into obscurity. However, there doesn't seem to be any demand at my parish to switch from the Novus Ordo in Latin to a Tridentine Mass. Perhaps because to the non-liturgically savvy observer, it seems identical.
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#13
(07-20-2010, 03:02 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(07-20-2010, 02:58 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: As for the report, I didn't even know there were NO's being said in Latin anywhere.. News to me.

The Novus Ordo in Latin is what I'm most familiar with, and is the Mass I sing chant in most often, since chant is in demand every Sunday and on certain holy days. The local diocesan Tridentine community only allows for chant once in a while.

I wasn't aware that it had been declining quite that far into obscurity. However, there doesn't seem to be any demand at my parish to switch from the Novus Ordo in Latin to a Tridentine Mass. Perhaps because to the non-liturgically savvy observer, it seems identical.

Why have a Latin NO that appears identical to the TLM? Why not just offer the TLM? Is it a rule that chant is only allowed once in a while at a TLM? Or is that just in your diocese?
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#14
(07-20-2010, 03:24 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: Why have a Latin NO that appears identical to the TLM? Why not just offer the TLM?

While the Mass may seem identical to the person in the pew, from the priest's, deacon's and subdeacon's perspectives there is a lot more to learn and perform. For example, in the Tridentine Mass when you incense the altar, there's a somewhat lengthy prayer that you must have completely memorised. Particular places you need to stand. And so on, and so forth. The Tridentine Mass also uses a different calendar and lectionary system, which requires having to write a different sermon or sometimes even a different feast day than the main Masses at the church.

There is also perhaps a belief that the reformed structure of the new Mass is preferable to the old structure. Little things like how the Ite, missa est in the new Mass is really at the end, after the blessing. Or the existence of an Old Testament reading, or bidding prayers between the Credo and Offertorium.

I'm now at a point where I think the Tridentine Mass is still preferable, but the reasons above put some of the issues of form in context. It's really not just about Latin.

Quote:Is it a rule that chant is only allowed once in a while at a TLM? Or is that just in your diocese?

Ideally, every Tridentine Mass has chant. In my diocesan Trid Mass, they alternate between low Mass and sung Mass depending on the Sunday, and the schola is not well-liked by certain influential people in that parish. Crazy old women, you know. So even most sung Masses feature only those howling harpies to sing, not a chant schola.
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#15
I wonder what this means for Opus Dei, since this is usually the mass they celebrate.
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#16
  In my parish  (LM) you have to audition and be able to read music before you can join the Choir.  I'm a piano teacher and a pretty good singer and I don't know if I will be accepted.  This is really a professional group.
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#17
Peter Karl T. Perkins had this to say on Rorate Caeli blog, in the comments for his article:


"...I remind people of this: some conservative bishops are against us, while some liberal bishops are tolerant of us. A conservative is emphatically NOT a traditionalist. We and the conservatives are two very different camps in the Church. In some ways, liberal bishops are more friendly to us than are conservatives. It may be because they don't see us as a threat. Conservatives dislike us because they fear our views might be ascribed to them. They want to position themselves as the 'moderates' of a new pontificate.

Conservative organisations in the Church have also been against traditionalists on the whole. Good examples are Opus Dei and the Legionaries of Christ. As for the first, I regard them as creepy compromisers and don't want anything to do with them. As for the second, well, who wants to be connected to *them* after the Marciel Marsupial incident?"
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#18
(07-20-2010, 03:50 PM)jacobhalo Wrote:   In my parish  (LM) you have to audition and be able to read music before you can join the Choir.  I'm a piano teacher and a pretty good singer and I don't know if I will be accepted.  This is really a professional group.

That sounds like a lot of Anglican/Episcopal churches. Ideally, there's so much supply in choir-hopefuls that the doors are busting open with audition-seekers.

Our Gregorian schola can't afford to do auditioning since there are so few volunteers in the first place. We're lucky to have four choristers on a given Sunday Mass.
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#19
(07-20-2010, 03:41 PM)Tulkas Wrote: I wonder what this means for Opus Dei, since this is usually the mass they celebrate.

Peter Karl T. Perkins had this to say about Opus Dei on Rorate Caeli blog, in the comments for his article:

"On Opus Dei, it has for a long time now forbidden the T.L.M. 'with extreme prejudice'. Why so? Why has it done this? The answer is simple: it wants power. You can't have power in the Church unless you 'play ball'l with the local bishops. So Opus Dei gave up the most important thing of all in order to preserve lesser things, for the T.L.M. cannot be separated from the Faith that is enshrined and celebrated in it. They gave up the Mass for the order and vestments and music that accompany the Traditional Mass. They threw out the baby and kept the bathwater.

I've heard stories from the past about how severely punished were those among their priests who dared to offer the T.L.M. Opus Dei will do what it takes to gain power and advance its 'conservative' agenda. But conservatives are not traditionalists; conservatives are only liberals in slow motion, just as fascists and communists are both condemned by God, for both are socialists."
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#20
(07-20-2010, 03:54 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: But conservatives are not traditionalists; conservatives are only liberals in slow motion, just as fascists and communists are both condemned by God, for both are socialists."

:pazzo:
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