The fruits of VII: Who cares what the Church teaches
#1
I saw this over at AQ...

Who cares what the Church teaches?
Poll shows 62% of Catholics want to keep California’s liberal abortion laws -- or make getting abortions even easier


California Catholic Daily
July 22, 2010
http://calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle....bdb64ac133

Forty-eight percent of self-identified Catholics oppose any changes to California’s liberal abortion laws, and 14% say the law should make it even easier for women to get abortions, a Field Poll released yesterday revealed.

Just 34% of poll respondents who identified themselves as Catholics said state law should be changed to make getting an abortion more difficult, while 4% had no opinion one way or the other, according to the Field Poll results.

The results were part of an overall portrait of California residents, painting them as one of the most pro-abortion electorates in the U.S. “There has been no change in California voters long-standing support for allowing women the right to a legal abortion,” said a summary of the results released yesterday by the Field Poll. “About seven in ten voters (71%) favor making no change to the state’s current abortion laws or making abortion easier to obtain. In addition, a similar 71% endorse the U.S. Supreme Court’s historic 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that granted women a constitutional right to abortion.”

The California results buck a national trend, where polls taken in recent years show that, overall, Americans have become increasingly pro-life.

The Field Poll did turn up some slivers of anti-abortion sentiment in the state. “The largest proportions of voters who take a contrary view and advocate making abortion harder to obtain exist among strong conservatives (52%), those who identify strongly with the Tea Party protest movement (48%), Vietnamese-Americans (45%), Republicans (40%), supporters of Carly Fiorina for U.S. Senate (39%), supporters of Meg Whitman for Governor (38%), moderate conservatives (37%) and Latinos (36%),” according to the Field Poll.

The poll was conducted between June 22 and July 5, and queried 1,390 registered voters across the state.
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#2
146. Did Christ intend that this power should be exercised by the apostles alone?
No, Christ intended that this power should be exercised also by their successors, the bishops of the Church.
147. Did Christ give special power in His Church to any one of the apostles?
Christ gave special power in His Church to Saint Peter by making him the head of the apostles and the chief teacher and ruler of the entire Church.
148. Did Christ intend that the special power of chief teacher and ruler of the entire Church should be exercised by Saint Peter alone?
Christ did not intend that the special power of chief teacher and ruler of the entire Church should be exercised by Saint Peter alone, but intended that this power should be passed down to his successor, the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth and the visible head of the Church.
149. Who assist the bishops in the care of souls?
The priests, especially parish priests, assist the bishops in the care of souls.
151. How can the laity help the Church in her care of souls?
The laity can help the Church in her care of souls by leading lives that will reflect credit on the Church, and by cooperating with their bishops and priests, especially through Catholic Action.
http://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-cat...son11.html

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#3
It is true that infidelity is on the rise. One searches in vein, however, how Vatican II has allowed Christians to disregard the fifth Commandment.
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#4
(07-22-2010, 02:32 PM)Credo Wrote: It is true that infidelity is on the rise. One searches in vein, however, how Vatican II has allowed Christians to disregard the fifth Commandment.

Well, all I know is that divorce rates among traditional Catholics is a lot lower than NO Catholics...in fact, there is no difference in the divorce rates between NO Catholics and the rest of the secular world.

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#5
(07-22-2010, 02:32 PM)Credo Wrote: It is true that infidelity is on the rise. One searches in vein, however, how Vatican II has allowed Christians to disregard the fifth Commandment.


Most of the Catholics polled are probably not practicing Catholics.  They were baptized Catholics but that's about it.  I wish those who disagree with church teachings would leave the church so we can have a smaller church but a believing fold of sheep.
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#6
(07-22-2010, 02:34 PM)Petertherock Wrote:
(07-22-2010, 02:32 PM)Credo Wrote: It is true that infidelity is on the rise. One searches in vein, however, how Vatican II has allowed Christians to disregard the fifth Commandment.

Well, all I know is that divorce rates among traditional Catholics is a lot lower than NO Catholics...in fact, there is no difference in the divorce rates between NO Catholics and the rest of the secular world.


Most traditional Catholics are practicing Catholics, whereas, most NO Catholics are not.
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#7
(07-22-2010, 02:36 PM)jacobhalo Wrote: Most of the Catholics polled are probably not practicing Catholics.  They were baptized Catholics but that's about it.  I wish those who disagree with church teachings would leave the church so we can have a smaller church but a believing fold of sheep.

(07-22-2010, 02:36 PM)jacobhalo Wrote: Most of the Catholics polled are probably not practicing Catholics.  They were baptized Catholics but that's about it.  I wish those who disagree with church teachings would leave the church so we can have a smaller church but a believing fold of sheep.

But before the Council most of those who called themselves Catholic actually acted and believed accordingly.  The majority of those born Catholic stayed Catholic and took the Church seriously.  That is not so now, obviously.

We are not Protestants.  The Church does not simply cease to be wherever bad Catholics congregate.  Dissenting Catholics are still members of the Church which contains both wheat and chaff.  The post-Conciliar Church has, in many ways, presented a religion which gives no real challenge to modern and secular thought and thus many people do not see the value in Catholicism (and rightfully so, given the fluffy heresy that's been taught).  The Truth speaks to the human soul which recognizes it for what it is via faith and reason.  If you do not present the Truth then people will naturally gravitate toward what is easiest or most affirmative of their subconsciously selfish, lazy, and biased personal thoughts and desires.  Why listen to a Church that is just another "faith community"?  If the Mass is just about community and feeling the grace given to you by God then why wouldn't you jump ship over to the Pentecostal church down the street?  After all, that service speaks to me more than the Catholic one.  Or why bother with church at all?  If God is really just a nice guy up there who doesn't really care what you do as long as you're happy then why not just sleep in on Sunday mornings and say a few prayers with the family before American Idol comes on?  Why burden yourself with babies that you don't want?  Et cetera.  Et cetera.

The point is that all of this didn't magically happen one day.  It's not as if this apostasy is without cause.  The Faith has been compromised in so many places and this is the logical outcome.
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#8
The "pill" is at the center of this. It is the cause of divorce and abortion, and pornography's and homosexuality's ascent . Pope Paul VI warned us about that when Humanae Vitae was released. It is also the reason for the rise in spousal abuse, which is epidemic. Ted Kennedy's Jesuit Theologians thought up the reasoning around this Teaching, and Patrick Moynihan, one of the smartest men I ever saw, pushed the Democratic Party into full support for abortion on it's ability as negative eugenics, in reducing "un-wanted children" among the poor. This is the problem in the reasoning for blaming this entirely on Vatican II. It took the secular society to get behind these evils. It was a pincer attack by the Adversary. It is also simplistic to blame the secular socirty solely. This is the reason the "PRO-LIFE" movement gets nowhere. They have a uni-dimensional  myopic view of a problem which is a multi-headed hydra.  If we are to succeed  we must put down our sloganeering and analyze the problem from all sides realizing when we squeeze on one end of this sausage it expands in another. While the party of death is the greatest promoter of death, the republicans are, wink and a nod, colluding in this moral quagmire. Do not kid yourselves this is racism pure and simple. And racism could be key to getting rid of it. The liberal and neo-cons Catholics are ultra sensitive to any allegations of even the most remote possibility of racism, and are quick, like the speed of light, to condemn it. That could be turned against them where these exercises of re-hashing positions which have only some of the reasons for this moral mess, only serves to piss them off. Priests do not preach the fifth commandment because they fear the Churches emptying of the few left. Kumbyah y'all ! Check mate ! They are smarter and they have out foxed us all, y'all.
tim
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#9
(07-22-2010, 02:32 PM)Credo Wrote: One searches in vein, however, how Vatican II has allowed Christians to disregard the fifth Commandment.

It would be very vain to search for anything regarding the Decalogue in a vein.
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#10
(07-22-2010, 04:08 PM)timoose Wrote: The "pill" is at the center of this. It is the cause of divorce and abortion, and pornography's and homosexuality's ascent . Pope Paul VI warned us about that when Humanae Vitae was released. It is also the reason for the rise in spousal abuse, which is epidemic. Ted Kennedy's Jesuit Theologians thought up the reasoning around this Teaching, and Patrick Moynihan, one of the smartest men I ever saw, pushed the Democratic Party into full support for abortion on it's ability as negative eugenics, in reducing "un-wanted children" among the poor. This is the problem in the reasoning for blaming this entirely on Vatican II. It took the secular society to get behind these evils. It was a pincer attack by the Adversary. It is also simplistic to blame the secular socirty solely. This is the reason the "PRO-LIFE" movement gets nowhere. They have a uni-dimensional   myopic view of a problem which is a multi-headed hydra.  If we are to succeed  we must put down our sloganeering and analyze the problem from all sides realizing when we squeeze on one end of this sausage it expands in another. While the party of death is the greatest promoter of death, the republicans are, wink and a nod, colluding in this moral quagmire. Do not kid yourselves this is racism pure and simple. And racism could be key to getting rid of it. The liberal and neo-cons Catholics are ultra sensitive to any allegations of even the most remote possibility of racism, and are quick, like the speed of light, to condemn it. That could be turned against them where these exercises of re-hashing positions which have only some of the reasons for this moral mess, only serves to piss them off. Priests do not preach the fifth commandment because they fear the Churches emptying of the few left. Kumbyah y'all ! Check mate ! They are smarter and they have out foxed us all, y'all.
tim

Good post Tim, but my question is this.  Would contraception and abortion ever even have become legal and/or acceptable culturally if the majority of this nation's Catholics adhered to the Church's teachings as they had before Modernism allowed dissent (first from theologians and then trickling down to the clergy and laymen) to creep into the Church?  Would such an all out attack on the Church's moral teaching from the secular world have been successful (or even possible) in a pre-Conciliar world?
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