Do the Holy Mysteries performed outside the Church, confere Grace?
#1
Hello

According to the Eastern Christian (specially Byzantine) way of thinking, the holy mysteries, when performed outside the Church (this is, the Orthodox Church) do not confere grace. Therefore, some of them (the Calendarists and ROCOR, that is, the conservative ones) incorrectly repeat the Baptism of the Latins who convert to Orthodoxy. Most Churches, however regard the Western baptism as an "empty form" (they're valid) that become filled with grace once the convert is received into Orthodoxy,

I used to think that the Catholic Church saw the sacraments of other Churches as valid and pleasant to God (this is what the Novus Ordo says). However, as I started researching I saw that the Catholic Church also sees the mysteries performed outside of it as valid but unperfect and having no benefit unto salvation.

St Augustine wrote:

“The comparison of the Church with Paradise  shows us that men may indeed receive baptism outside her pale, but that no one outside can either receive or retain the salvation of eternal happiness... Accordingly, although the waters of Paradise  are found beyond its boundaries, yet its happiness is in Paradise  alone. So, therefore, the baptism of the Church may exist outside, but the gift of the life of happiness is found alone within the Church, which has been founded on a rock, which has received the keys of binding and losing." [...]


"This indeed is true, that “baptism is not unto salvation except within the Catholic Church.” For in itself it can indeed exist outside the Catholic Church as well; but there it is not unto salvation, because there it does not work salvation; just as that sweet savour of Christ is not unto salvation in them that perish, though from a fault not in itself but in them."


Saint Bruno of Segni:

“Consequently, baptism cannot be given and cannot benefit [the person] outside the Church. For although baptism which is given outside the Church does have the form of the sacrament, it does not have the virtue of the sacrament; it has the form, of course, because it is done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."


So the possition of both Traditional Catholicism and Orthodoxy is actually very similar.

Does this mean that the Latin Church also sees the sacraments performed outside the Church as not having the grace even though they are valid?

Thanks.



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#2
(08-03-2010, 09:45 PM)Mexican Wrote: So the possition of both Traditional Catholicism and Orthodoxy is actually very similar.

Does this mean that the Latin Church also sees the sacraments performed outside the Church as not having the grace even though they are valid?

Thanks.

No, they can have grace. However, the real issue is the intent and knowledge of the individual. A person who received unworthy is guilty. A person who belongs to a schismatic sect and receives knowing their own position cannot receive properly (hence, no grace). However, a person in the Church who is an emergency may go to the Orthodox for the sacraments, so the sacraments themselves are not graceless.
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#3
A traditionally validly ordained Priest, though he be a heretic in mortal sin, can still convect a valid sacrament, using the traditional form (words) & matter when his intention is to do what the true Church intends.  His ordination must be traceable back to Peter.  However supporting a heretical Priest is a mortal sin. 

If he's imposing in his heresy such as requiring the recipient to accept in BOD, divorce etc; then he'd have to be avoided. 

One must not accept any heresy (denial of Christ & His Church) or they'd loose the state of Grace.  Serving Mass, supporting him financially etc.  He must be ordained in the traditional rite specifically to offer sacrifice, forgive sins, bless, exorcise, preach etc.  I've heard there are a few Priests who are ordained to offer the holy Sacrifice only in these terrible times.  There's no seminaries left that I'm aware of.

Another example found in study is that the ordination can be done by a Heretic, as long as it's valid.  Like in the case of St. Vincent Ferrar's ordination during the great western schism.  A time when 3, or 4, people claimed to be Pope.

It can be very confusing.  The true Devotion to Mary, by St. Louis DeMontfore, is critical to receive the Grace to survive this heretical world.  Many Saints mention proper devotion to St. Joseph too as required.  WHO IS A BETTER EXAMPLE OF DEVOTION TO OUR BLESSED MOTHER then him?  And he appeared at Fatima.

best always,

dave
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#4


[/quote]

No, they can have grace. However, the real issue is the intent and knowledge of the individual. A person who received unworthy is guilty. A person who belongs to a schismatic sect and receives knowing their own position cannot receive properly (hence, no grace). However, a person in the Church who is an emergency may go to the Orthodox for the sacraments, so the sacraments themselves are not graceless.
[/quote]

I agree, as far the next post and St Louis de Montfort, while I agree he was a avid follower of the Rosary. And clearly has stated the Rosary is a Blessing.  I'm not sure what one has to do with the other? 

The Rosary as far as being a Blessing, is also one that not all Catholics receive and are not required to. Many of us truly believe the calling from Mary is from Mary. In other words, I don't believe you find Mary, she comes to you through your sincere faith and trials. I believe this blessing is there for all.  Yet as witnessed at Miraculous Medal Mass, those who attend are the same faces and they attend weekly and faithfully, and there percentage is small as compared to the population of the same parish. Many, many Catholics are asked, told, and constantly incouraged to pray the Rosary. Yet for one reason of another as St Louis de Montfort states, they are unable to obtain this blessing.  I've come to believe this is a supernaturally imposed virtue that you should hold in high regard if you have received this blessing. Yet how this is confused with sacrements of the church I'm not sure?  Maybe I missed something?

St Josemaria  was very accurate in his quote,  "Many find to recite Hail Marys a monotony, yet there is also the same monotony of ones sin"
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#5
Dave France,  your entire statement is complete crap. 

Mexican, ignore Dave's post. It is not Catholicism it is sedevacantist garbage.
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#6
I would have to say that the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Churches do confer grace, for the Church has long held that, aside from the validity of Trinitarian baptism being performed by anyone (provided they intend to do what the Church does) and the validity of marriage between validly baptized heretics, the Eastern Orthodox in particular also have valid Holy Orders, the Blessed Eucharist, Confirmation, Penance and Extreme Unction. The validity of Holy Orders and of the Blessed Sacrament among the Eastern Orthodox is specifically attested to by decisions of the Holy Office dating back to the 1750s and the 1860s. I think it's safe to assume, therefore, that all of their sacraments are valid and thus confer grace.

http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/article...Allan.html
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#7
(08-21-2010, 03:40 PM)dave france Wrote: A traditionally validly ordained Priest, though he be a heretic in mortal sin, can still convect a valid sacrament, using the traditional form (words) & matter when his intention is to do what the true Church intends.   

It is interesting that you mentioned this. I was just discussing this with a priest recently (for 3 hours actually). From what I understand, it is not the intention to do what the Church intends (the intended substance), but it is an intention to do what the Church does. In this way, it sets the bar even lower than the intentions of the Church, which are very numerous and theologically precise, and simply places it on the external sacrament: what the Church does - that is, confect the sacrament.

A pagan who is baptizing, for example, doesn't have to specifically intend to wash away original sin - he may not even believe in original sin at all - though the baptizer cannot have a specifically contrary intention (he cannot say, for instance: "I am now going to administer baptism, but I'm not going to wash away any sin.") Still, he does not have to intend to do what the Church intends or else he would have to believe in original sin (at least implicitly). Rather, he only has to intend to do what the Church does - that is, confect the sacrament.

At least, that is how I understand it.
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#8
(08-26-2010, 02:42 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: (provided they intend to do what the Church does)

I see you addressed that already. Very good.
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#9
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#10
Sacraments work ex opere operato -- that is, they confer grace by the working of the minister. This was defined by the St. Augustine to counter the Donatist schism, the followers of which held that the worthiness of the minister affect Sacramental validity.

Provided there is nothing defective that impeded the validity due to form, matter, intention or minister, any sacrament is valid an confers grace. The valid form, matter, intention and minister are different for each Sacrament.

There is no doubt regarding a child below the age of reason, but after that point, all Sacraments except the Eucharist do rely for validity on the disposition of the recipient. Directly willing not to receive a sacrament can make a Sacrament invalid. Also, those who receive improperly disposed (e.g. State of Mortal Sin) may validly receive the Sacrament, but the graces are withheld until they make themselves properly disposed (e.g. Confession  and Absolution). Those that knowingly receive a Sacrament unworthily validly receive, but commit a grave sin of sacrilege.

So with those in schism, Sacraments do give grace, but the state of the soul of the individual, due to that schism, may mean that the grace given is given, but not applied due to improper disposition.
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