Could it possibly be more obvious
#31
(08-17-2010, 09:40 PM)Credo Wrote: StrictCatholicGirl, the quote has been altered. You three posts and one Private Message were not necessary.

I think the private message was necessary, but I should have just kept it private. My posts have now been altered as "edited."
Reply
#32
dark lancer Wrote:Does FE ever get Protestants on the forum?

On occasion a Protestant will post on this website. I'm sad to say that they're often "shouted down" as trolls, whereupon they slink away not to be heard from again. Their presence would be helpful for staying apologetically "in shape."
Reply
#33
(08-17-2010, 08:09 AM)Credo Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Is there anything wrong with that?

No, not if the events described jive with history.

One approaches deathbed conversion stories with hesitation, however, for two reasons:
1) They always involve perceived enemies of Christianity [e.g.: Paine, Voltaire, Darwin, Luther, and Stalin (in one manner)]. In other words, these deathbed stories allow the Christian audience to say a post-mortem "gottcha,"
2) As far as my reading goes, these tales are only reported by religious writers. As religious conversion is a major paradigm shift, one should find these happenings reported by secular biographers. They are not.

Neither is the full tale of Rasputin's final hours recounted by secular historians, even though there exist two, highly detailed, independent accounts of what happened.  Secular historians are as biased as any other brand of historian.

Malachi Martin says Luther died blaspheming.  After reading this thread, I see therefore that there are at least three distinct accounts of Luther's last actions.

You Credo should be able to admit that every single one of them fits the man in question.  Luther was an anti-saint, a destroyer.  But we don't need these apparently unconfirmed accounts of the manner of his death to realize that, do we...
Reply
#34
(08-17-2010, 08:09 AM)Credo Wrote: 2) As far as my reading goes, these tales are only reported by religious writers. As religious conversion is a major paradigm shift, one should find these happenings reported by secular biographers. They are not.

The last written words of Luther, as alleged by one of his companions, are known.  Not surprisingly, they contradict what Luther used to assert regarding the private interpretation of Sacred Scripture. 

The account that I have read regarding his demise has him lucid near his death and at one point stating, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."  He also had some things to say about the papacy.

Reply
#35
(08-18-2010, 12:19 AM)DJR Wrote: The last written words of Luther, as alleged by one of his companions, are known.  Not surprisingly, they contradict what Luther used to assert regarding the private interpretation of Sacred Scripture. 

The account that I have read regarding his demise has him lucid near his death and at one point stating, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."  He also had some things to say about the papacy.

Can you provide them for me, please?
Reply
#36
(08-18-2010, 12:26 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(08-18-2010, 12:19 AM)DJR Wrote: The last written words of Luther, as alleged by one of his companions, are known.  Not surprisingly, they contradict what Luther used to assert regarding the private interpretation of Sacred Scripture.  The account that I have read regarding his demise has him lucid near his death and at one point stating, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."  He also had some things to say about the papacy.
Can you provide them for me, please?

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text...eggars.txt

Johannes Aurifaber, student and secretary of Martin Luther, wrote: "Luther...wrote these words in Latin on a slip of paper and put them on his table. I, Johannes Aurifaber, wrote them down and Dr. Justus Jonas, Superintendent of Halle, who was at Halle at the same time, took the slip of paper with him." The slip of paper has long since disappeared, but the words have been preserved. As translated by James A. Kellerman (for the public domain):

Luther Wrote:No one can understand Vergil's Bucolics unless he has been a shepherd for five years. No one can understand Vergil's Georgics, unless he has been a farmer for five years. No one can understand Cicero's Letters (or so I teach), unless he has busied himself in the affairs of some prominent state for twenty years.

Know that no one can have indulged in the Holy Writers sufficiently, unless he has governed churches for a hundred years with the prophets, such as Elijah and Elisha, John the Baptist, Christ and the apostles. Do not assail this divine Aeneid; nay, rather prostrate revere the ground that it treads. We are beggars; this is true.

"We are beggars" are the only words written in Luther's native German.
Reply
#37
How do these words contradict lutheran teaching?
Reply
#38
(08-14-2010, 08:18 PM)The Catholic Thinker Wrote: that Protestantism came straight from Satan?

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apol....htm#_ftn3

Wow.  This guy was a jerk! 

I wish that I had read these quotations from Luther around the time of my conversion.  It would have shaped my steps into Catholic life in a much more interesting direction!
Reply
#39
(08-18-2010, 08:16 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:
(08-14-2010, 08:18 PM)The Catholic Thinker Wrote: that Protestantism came straight from Satan?

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apol....htm#_ftn3

Wow.  This guy was a jerk! 

I wish that I had read these quotations from Luther around the time of my conversion.  It would have shaped my steps into Catholic life in a much more interesting direction!

I believe it is accurate to say that Martin Luther must have been one of the most evil men who has ever lived (Ok - among the famous) and that, barring a deathbed conversion of the most extreme type, he is probably suffering extreme torments in Hell for his monumental sins of pride, blasphemy, and about every other type.

Of course we should hope that he did repent at the end.
Reply
#40
(08-17-2010, 09:40 PM)Credo Wrote:
The Catholic Thinker Wrote:Do you have any input at all on the actual matter?

Yes. Perhaps you didn't read my post. My initial input was that the scholarship on the site was sloppy. The editors copied and pasted quotes from Luther and Christ without giving any context. If the Catholic critique of Protestantism is the common use of biblical verses in a vacuum, then Catholics cannot do the same when it's convenient for us.

The 'actual matter' would be the things Martin Luther said and wrote.  Every quote had a reference - and more than a few are fairly well-known (and acknowledged by several Protestants I've debated).  If you think most - or perhaps any - of those quotes need any context beyond what's there to understand, you are more confused than I had thought up to this point.  I wonder seriously how many you read.  I wonder seriously if you only responded to play your familiar role of devil's advocate.


Quote:It is no secret that I do like some of the work of Mr. Hitchens.

You are someone who needs our prayers.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)