Vermont's laws never cease to annoy me (anti-smoking legislation...)
#11
If America legalizes public smoking of pot, I am going to commence my revolution and make America a Catholic monarchy.

That stuff stinks.
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#12
(09-12-2010, 06:26 PM)PatrickTorsell Wrote: I'm all for public smoking bans in restaurants, etc (although a part of me still thinks it ought to be up to the business owner, really).  I was just detailing the extent of the law here.  My issue is that you cannot even have places designated specifically for smoking, even if measures are taken to ensure that non-smokers are never exposed to the smoke.
Smoke is suspended in the air. The designated areas do not matter.

Quote:I despise the smell of pot, by the way.  I'd much rather smell cigarettes (I don't smoke them, but the smoke doesn't really bother me).  Of course, I'd really rather smell cigars/pipes.
Well, tough. Pot is normally illegal anyway. This is a bigger problem if smoking substances for drugs is a "right".
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#13
(09-13-2010, 01:00 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(09-13-2010, 06:52 AM)PatrickTorsell Wrote:
(09-12-2010, 09:10 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Isn't smoking a mortal sin?  It is self-mutilation, after all.

I wonder what G.K. Chesterton would think of that suggestion  :o  Actually, he addresses it in "American Morals," IIRC.

I certainly am not qualified to judge the whole of smoking as sinful or not, but to classify occasional cigar/pipe smoking as self-mutilation, definitely not.  I've read several studies from the NCA and a variety of health organizations who all conclude that the adverse effects of occasional cigar/pipe smoking (as in less than 1 per day) are negligible.  In general, cigar/pipe smokers do not inhale, which greatly reduces (or even negates) any lung damage.  The biggest threat is mouth/throat cancer, but again, for occasional smokers the risk is practically non-existent.  You put yourself in much greater peril driving a car than smoking a cigar twice a week!  Occasional smokers are also not addicted (or at least not many).  The intake of nicotine is not enough and not often enough to form an addiction.

So then you do concur that it is self-mutilation and thus a mortal sin.

Driving a car is often a necessary thing, smoking is only done to be "cool."

No to the first sentence.  My quoted post concludes that it is NOT self-mutilation.  As with any good thing, moderation is the key.

And no, smoking is not done to be "cool."  I suppose that's how a lot of younger folk get started smoking cigarettes, but that is certainly not even a factor in my choice to enjoy a cigar twice a week.
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#14
Edited.  No need to argue.

Herr, I respect your distaste for tobacco, but respectfully disagree with your assessment.  No need to delve farther into that can of worms.  I've read your thoughts in other tobacco-related threads, and appreciate where you're coming from.  My research and personal experience has obviously left me with a different conclusion.


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#15
Really the only alcoholic beverage worth drinking is wine, and only then in small quantities.  Why anyone is masochistic enough to drink anything else is beyond me.

Pot and tobacco smoking are forms of self-mutilation.  Did Jesus really want you to fill your lungs with poisonous chemicals?
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#16
(09-13-2010, 03:39 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Really the only alcoholic beverage worth drinking is wine, and only then in small quantities.  Why anyone is masochistic enough to drink anything else is beyond me.

Pot and tobacco smoking are forms of self-mutilation.  Did Jesus really want you to fill your lungs with poisonous chemicals?

No, he didn't.  So I don't inhale.  :wink:

Did you read my earlier post, though? 

The American Cancer Society has stated that, "The health risks linked to occasional cigar smoking (less than daily) are not known."  Now, you might say I'm making assumptions here, but if they've put millions into studying the risks of all kinds of smoking, and make a statement like that, that's a pretty solid indicator that occasional cigar smoking doesn't even present enough of risk to be studied!

And you may find this to be silly logic, but I'll share it nonetheless:

"about.com guide" Wrote:Health Benefits to Smoking Cigars
Are there any health benefits to cigar smoking? Long before all the research proved that it was dangerous to smoke, tobacco was actually used for medicinal purposes. Although we now know that it will not cure cancer and other diseases, some cigar enthusiasts will argue that cigars can be smoked to relax, and therefore, lower the blood pressure. Besides, if smoking cigars brings relaxation or enjoyment, then it is providing a mental health benefit. Tobacco is also believed to be an aid in controlling weight. Stretching a bit further, cigar smoke can repel flying insects, and therefore, lower the risk of contracting St. Louis encephalitis or the West Nile virus when enjoying the great outdoors.

No idea who wrote it, but it's not exactly a scientific article, just an interesting thought.
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#17
You may also find the table at the top of the link below interesting (the table is from a study done by the National Cancer Institute in 1998; the article in the link analyzes the study).  Take note that the lowest cigar consumption they studied is 1-2 cigars per DAY.  Now, adjust that for 1-2 cigars per week, and the risks are, well, almost non-existent.  Certainly less dangerous than a lot of things we do every day.

http://www.cigargroup.com/faq/health/ncifaq.htm
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#18
(09-12-2010, 06:28 PM)PatrickTorsell Wrote: I'm not trying to be argumentative, Herr, but if you're in support of anti-smoking legislation, what do you think about alcohol prohibition? 
I do not support unnecessary government involvement in people's lives. I do think that controlling what people burn in places others breath is a major thing though. I think burning drugs and other substances should be regulated. I do not think the government should regulate the use of natural substances by adult individuals by itself.

I do not think others should be bound by law to do what I think is right, but I think governments, especially local ones and small ones than Federal (in the USA), have the duty and right to regulate such activities. It is not merely an issue of body odour or strong perfume, but the burning of substances which release actual drugs and other fumes into the air. Smokers cause fires (two fires at the site where I work (actually, the owner of the facility, which has many in the area, so I do not know exactly where they were)). Smoking where the smoker does not have authority over the property is something I think could be just to regulate.

If it were just an issue of odour, then I do not think it is something which should be regulated. It is merely a social issue then.
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#19
(09-13-2010, 03:54 PM)PatrickTorsell Wrote:
(09-13-2010, 03:39 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Really the only alcoholic beverage worth drinking is wine, and only then in small quantities.  Why anyone is masochistic enough to drink anything else is beyond me.

Pot and tobacco smoking are forms of self-mutilation.  Did Jesus really want you to fill your lungs with poisonous chemicals?

No, he didn't.  So I don't inhale.  :wink:

Did you read my earlier post, though? 

The American Cancer Society has stated that, "The health risks linked to occasional cigar smoking (less than daily) are not known."  Now, you might say I'm making assumptions here, but if they've put millions into studying the risks of all kinds of smoking, and make a statement like that, that's a pretty solid indicator that occasional cigar smoking doesn't even present enough of risk to be studied!

And you may find this to be silly logic, but I'll share it nonetheless:

"about.com guide" Wrote:Health Benefits to Smoking Cigars
Are there any health benefits to cigar smoking? Long before all the research proved that it was dangerous to smoke, tobacco was actually used for medicinal purposes. Although we now know that it will not cure cancer and other diseases, some cigar enthusiasts will argue that cigars can be smoked to relax, and therefore, lower the blood pressure. Besides, if smoking cigars brings relaxation or enjoyment, then it is providing a mental health benefit. Tobacco is also believed to be an aid in controlling weight. Stretching a bit further, cigar smoke can repel flying insects, and therefore, lower the risk of contracting St. Louis encephalitis or the West Nile virus when enjoying the great outdoors.

No idea who wrote it, but it's not exactly a scientific article, just an interesting thought.

I'll bet that the dubious claim that tobacco can aid in weight control comes from the tendency of quitters to gain weight.
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#20
(09-13-2010, 04:12 PM)PatrickTorsell Wrote: You may also find the table at the top of the link below interesting (the table is from a study done by the National Cancer Institute in 1998; the article in the link analyzes the study).  Take note that the lowest cigar consumption they studied is 1-2 cigars per DAY.  Now, adjust that for 1-2 cigars per week, and the risks are, well, almost non-existent.  Certainly less dangerous than a lot of things we do every day.

The issue isn't the risk to the smoker. They can do whatever they want. It is others besides the smokers. Then it shouldn't be a problem to do it in one's own home.

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