That euthanasia should be accepted and allowed
#1
Now calm down dont go flying off your horses. I am being completely sincere in this thread. I want to discuss the basis and validity in the Catholic Churches opposition to euthanasia. Now recently I've been doing a little research and frankly I have found myself convinced that it should be allowed.


Now I define euthanasia as the consented and, if required, assisted death of an individual due to medical, non psychological reasons (eg; so they choose to die due to having severe cancer, not because they are depressed or because someone else thinks they should die).

Theoretically and theologically, these are my arguments;
1. Killing is not wrong in Catholicism - as long as it is for a good reason. That is, if it is not murder than it can be considered.
2. Thus, following on from 1, we kill for self defence and thus for the betterment of certain people and groups in society.
3. Thus, I contend, since Jesus message was all about love for others, and euthanasia is an act of mercy that is both consented to, desired and better an individual;, I contend it should be accepted.

Now the opposing argument are that since our body is 'God's temple', it cannot be destroyed, however this does not negate killing, as the Mosaic and Christian law, described by Jesus, shows. And since it is an act of love, not an act of evil, I believe it should be allowed.


I do not mean to cause anger, hatred or conflict with this issue. I sincerely wish to discuss it, as I beleive it is an issue many Catholics do not understand and have misjudged.
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#2
(09-14-2010, 04:19 AM)MetallicaFan Wrote: Now recently I've been doing a little research and frankly I have found myself convinced that it should be allowed.

What material have you been researching that would lead you to be convinced euthanasia should be allowed?

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#3
Bringing the boat back out from the weeds; it's resolved euthanasia is not permitted. If we strip the straw man arguments about all the mitigations what is left is a killing which is premeditated. Catholicism allows for killing in self defense, killing in an accidental death, it does not allow for pre-meditated killing. When killing is pre-meditated it becomes murder, and the commandment in Hebrew forbids stealthy pre-meditated murder.

Where you go wrong is part b of 2 and in 3 as a conclusion. The greatest act of mercy is laying down your life for another, second is suffering. A person's suffering might be the thing which bring them to God, or it may be the suffering which will be used to bring others to God, either way it is meritorious. Suicide is cowardice. Suicide and that is what we are talking about, is pre-meditated murder, and a rejection of the gift of life from the Holy Ghost.

I'm sure some one that has studied moral theology will come along and explain much better, but this is a start.

tim
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#4
(09-14-2010, 11:15 AM)timoose Wrote: Bringing the boat back out from the weeds; it's resolved euthanasia is not permitted. If we strip the straw man arguments about all the mitigations what is left is a killing which is premeditated. Catholicism allows for killing in self defense, killing in an accidental death, it does not allow for pre-meditated killing. When killing is pre-meditated it becomes murder, and the commandment in Hebrew forbids stealthy pre-meditated murder.

Where you go wrong is part b of 2 and in 3 as a conclusion. The greatest act of mercy is laying down your life for another, second is suffering. A person's suffering might be the thing which bring them to God, or it may be the suffering which will be used to bring others to God, either way it is meritorious. Suicide is cowardice. Suicide and that is what we are talking about, is pre-meditated murder, and a rejection of the gift of life from the Holy Ghost.

I'm sure some one that has studied moral theology will come along and explain much better, but this is a start.

tim

Hands down the root of this issue. Nothing inspired me more than to watch my grandmother offer 3 serious illnesses for the salvation of souls. It wasn't easy. She suffered immensely for several years and there were many days when a part of her just wanted it to be over, but she stuck it out until it was God's decision to take her because every moment was life, every moment was an intimate union with the Passion of Our Lord and every moment meant grace being poured upon her family, whom she loved more than herself.   
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#5
(09-14-2010, 04:19 AM)MetallicaFan Wrote: Now I define euthanasia as the consented and, if required, assisted death of an individual due to medical, non psychological reasons (eg; so they choose to die due to having severe cancer, not because they are depressed or because someone else thinks they should die).
Don't beat around the bush. Rephrase that as "euthanasia as the consented deliberate killing of another human being because of a person's desire to be killed". Choosing to die because one has a terminal illness is a stupid thing to say. People who choose suicide are depressed at best.

Quote:2. Thus, following on from 1, we kill for self defence and thus for the betterment of certain people and groups in society.
3. Thus, I contend, since Jesus message was all about love for others, and euthanasia is an act of mercy that is both consented to, desired and better an individual;, I contend it should be accepted.
But how is it an act of mercy? That doesn't make any sense.

Here are two facts, which Jesus not only acknowledged, but underwent:

* We will suffer in life
* We will die

These two are the defining aspects of life.

Do you think death is a lowered form of existence for a person? The pains of this world to those outside this world is as significant as the discomfort a baby has when they are given an involuntary bath. Imagine looking back on your life, as an immortal being with full awareness of self and seeing how you elevated the body.

Quote:I do not mean to cause anger, hatred or conflict with this issue. I sincerely wish to discuss it, as I beleive it is an issue many Catholics do not understand and have misjudged.
In the Church, one can not take extra ordinary measures to save a life without fear of sin. So, withholding food, water and proper shelter would be wrong. A person refusing (or a person who is incapacitates, not being given) certain treatments which may prolong a person's life to some degree is not sinning if those treatments are not necessary for living.

Keeping a dying person comfortable is also laudable. However, we all are dying.

Killing someone because of some misguided worship of the body is very wrong.
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#6
(09-14-2010, 04:19 AM)MetallicaFan Wrote: Theoretically and theologically, these are my arguments;
1. Killing is not wrong in Catholicism - as long as it is for a good reason. That is, if it is not murder than it can be considered.
2. Thus, following on from 1, we kill for self defence and thus for the betterment of certain people and groups in society.
3. Thus, I contend, since Jesus message was all about love for others, and euthanasia is an act of mercy that is both consented to, desired and better an individual;, I contend it should be accepted.

Now the opposing argument are that since our body is 'God's temple', it cannot be destroyed, however this does not negate killing, as the Mosaic and Christian law, described by Jesus, shows. And since it is an act of love, not an act of evil, I believe it should be allowed.


I do not mean to cause anger, hatred or conflict with this issue. I sincerely wish to discuss it, as I beleive it is an issue many Catholics do not understand and have misjudged.

Ad 1 and 2: Following Catholic moral theology, some killing is not wrong. Killing is morally permissible only when it is just and when one has the authority to do so. Thus, the State has authority from God (Cf. Rom. 13:4) to sentence convicted evildoers - unjust persons - to death. Again, the State has authority to wage a just war and kill unjust aggressors who attack it. Third, private individuals have authority to kill others only when those other people are unjust attackers and the individual has no other way to subdue the attacker. This authority comes from the moral obligation of charity to oneself, namely, preserving one’s own life (please refer to the order of charity: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm).

Killing “for the betterment of certain people and groups in society” is ambiguous and needs to be further explained.

Ad 3: The same Jesus who taught love for others also taught, “Thou shalt do no murder” (Matthew 19:18).

Now, it remains for me to give a definition of murder and to show that euthanasia is in fact murder.

As to the definition of murder:

Murder “is the direct and unjust killing of another person” (Fr. Fagothey, Right and Reason: Ethics in Theory and Practice, p. 281).

“Murder is the voluntary and unjust killing of a human being” (Baltimore Catechism and Mass No. 3, q. 253, a. A, p. 147).

“The direct killing of oneself on one’s own authority is a most grievous sin against divine, Natural, and ecclesiastical law” (Fr. Prummer, Handbook of Moral Theology, sec. 275, p. 125).

How euthanasia is murder:

Euthanasia is murder because it is the unjust killing of another person. It is unjust because the sick person is not guilty of some grievous crime. Moreover, private individuals (including doctors) do not have authority to kill other people, except when it comes to the aforementioned reason given above, self-defense. Euthanasia, however, cannot in any way be considered self-defense because the sick person is in no way an unjust aggressor. Even if the sick person in question were guilty of some grievous crime (making him an unjust person), then it still belongs to the State the right and responsibility to convict the person of his crime, as well as to sentence him to death (because the State has this authority from God, as mentioned above).

Euthanasia also involves suicide, because the person desiring death (giving consent to others) directly takes part in his own unwarranted death.
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#7
The classical case is the old Eskimo women. If she goes out to the ice to sleep (and to die) her grandchild may have enough food to survive, otherwise one of the randomly die. What should she do?
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#8
(09-14-2010, 02:45 PM)glgas Wrote: The classical case is the old Eskimo women. If she goes out to the ice to sleep (and to die) her grandchild may have enough food to survive, otherwise one of the randomly die. What should she do?

I may give a longer answer later, but I would assume that the principle of double effect would have some bearing in this case (morally good action: feeding the young; good effect: preserving the life of the grandchild; bad effect: dying of starvation). The grandmother wouldn't be truly euthanizing herself if she gave the last bit of food to her grandchild because it isn't as though she deliberately desires her own death; instead, it is a circumstance that she cannot reasonably avoid.
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#9
(09-14-2010, 07:05 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(09-14-2010, 04:19 AM)MetallicaFan Wrote: Now recently I've been doing a little research and frankly I have found myself convinced that it should be allowed.

What material have you been researching that would lead you to be convinced euthanasia should be allowed?
Just Jesus teachings.
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#10
(09-14-2010, 11:15 AM)timoose Wrote: Bringing the boat back out from the weeds; it's resolved euthanasia is not permitted. If we strip the straw man arguments about all the mitigations what is left is a killing which is premeditated. Catholicism allows for killing in self defense, killing in an accidental death, it does not allow for pre-meditated killing.
But killing in self defense is killing for a good purpose - for love of others, thus why does it not extend to killing sick people who suffer so terribly and who want to die?

(09-14-2010, 11:15 AM)timoose Wrote: When killing is pre-meditated it becomes murder, and the commandment in Hebrew forbids stealthy pre-meditated murder.
No, murder is unlawful killing. Thus change the law and it isn't murder. All designed and intentional killing is premeditated, A soldier killing in a gun fight committed a premeditated assault - he was organized and ready and was seeking to kill. Thus we allow that, this is no reason to deny euthanasia.

(09-14-2010, 11:15 AM)timoose Wrote: Where you go wrong is part b of 2 and in 3 as a conclusion. The greatest act of mercy is laying down your life for another, second is suffering. A person's suffering might be the thing which bring them to God, or it may be the suffering which will be used to bring others to God, either way it is meritorious.
So we should allow evil to come to all others as well. Thus we should not defend our selves through any force or have any armies?

(09-14-2010, 11:15 AM)timoose Wrote: Suicide is cowardice.
No it isnt.
(09-14-2010, 11:15 AM)timoose Wrote: Suicide and that is what we are talking about, is pre-meditated murder, and a rejection of the gift of life from the Holy Ghost.
No, I find it is an act of love for oneself. God helps the man who helps himself. We have power over life and death. God says killing is ok, so did Jesus, for the right reason. Euthanasia, is justified.
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