Wizards and a defense of Gandalf
#19
(09-30-2010, 03:49 AM)Iolanthe Wrote: I don't understand why this couldn't have gone in the other thread.
For me, it boils down to Unix. I like things focused and clear. This is a new topic, although, a direct continuation of the other. It was also a general post, not one directed at your response, although I use it as the example for the term.

Quote:It's just an extension of your argument.
Not at all. I do not intend to argue for the reading of Tolkien because refraining from it is never sinful. It is only when some presses the other way do I push back. Avoiding sin is more important than this.

Quote: I can't help suspecting that you like to start over with a clean slate when people have made convincing arguments against you.
I can't help that, but I did not find your argument convincing against any of my statements. As noted in the another thread, it is important to determine the fundamental principles used for judgement before judging an individual work. I haven't actually read Tolkien's or C.S. Lewis's fantasy novels in a long time, so my main posting in regard to each is focused more on fact. If one says Gandalf uses magic just like Harry Potter, I'll be able to refute that. If one says that Tolkien's depiction of Gandalf is still immoral, I can't really go into detail because I haven't studied the direct source closely enough.

Quote: Everyone should go look at the harry potter thread; there's some good stuff in there, and there's some good stuff in the last thread in this subforum which was posted on this topic. Personally, I get a little tired of repeating myself, but I will add that it was clear that the magicians or wizards in the bible were evil, whether or not Moses and Aaron performed miracles, which is not the same thing.
That is true, wizards and magicians referred to evil practitioners, however, like I pointed out, words do not have inherent meaning. Wizard went from "wise man" to a suitable translation of "nefarious, evil person" in (it seems) less than two centuries. To judge a particular work, one must study it in detail. The fact that Tolkien uses the word wizard to describe Gandalf would lend evidence to the evil nature of this fictional character. A closer analysis of what Tolkien's fantasy contained, would possibly mitigate the use of the term. If someone changed all the "wizard" references to "wise man" or "messenger of God", it would probably not change the story at all. On the other hand, in a story like Harry Potter, if one changed all the wizard references to something else, the nature of the situations described would still support the concept of "evil".

If the Lord of the Rings were translated into Latin (which may have been done), would one use "maleficus", a word which means "evil male" without any doubt or something else? If that Latin text were translated into English again, what would would be used to translate whatever word was used to describe Gandalf?

Quote: The fact that you are associating the two in this manner makes about the clearest argument in favor of the morality of witchcraft for a Catholic that I've ever seen. I wouldn't go around telling children these kinds of things if I were you.

Read the list at the bottom of my post. It was a highly focused thread on the context of "wizard". It is more of a linguistic analysis than anything.

Also, the morality is another issue. Fantasy may still be evil; I never directly supported that. I do not at this time think it is, but I would not strongly defend that position because it can easily be so and there is no loss if I'm wrong now.

Speaking of the morality of witchcraft, perhaps my blog may make this clearer: http://nonpeccabis.blogspot.com/2010/09/...ntasy.html

This thread was about the word "wizard" and depictions of Gandalf.

You are addressing things which were not written. Please do not assume things about me. Pointing out the written words of scripture and respectful art of it does not a clear argument about anything. It merely points out that older men, holding sticks and speaking are not necessarily evil because there are two very holy instances of such people in the faith.
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Messages In This Thread
Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by Historian - 09-29-2010, 09:59 PM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by Walty - 09-29-2010, 10:53 PM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by Walty - 09-29-2010, 11:11 PM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by timoose - 09-30-2010, 07:43 AM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by Historian - 09-30-2010, 10:06 AM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by cgraye - 09-30-2010, 11:35 AM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by Walty - 09-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by Walty - 09-30-2010, 08:16 PM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by piabee - 10-01-2010, 01:04 PM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by timoose - 10-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by Walty - 10-02-2010, 12:09 AM
Re: Wizards and a defense of Gandalf - by piabee - 10-03-2010, 02:44 AM



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