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#11
Maddness!
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#12
Wonderful news. I'm still waiting for St. Clements Episcopal Church in Philadelphia to cross the Tiber. It is, by far, one of the most Catholic of "Anglo-Catholic" parishes and with the Pre-55 Holy Week to boot. 'Puts many a TLM parish to shame, I dare say.

http://www.s-clements.org/index.php

Servus_Maria Wrote:This is great but it confuses me why these Anglican clergy continue to run parishes, offer Mass etc. once they've decided to convert to the Catholic Church. If their conversion is sincere then they should believe their orders to be invalid and stop playing Mass immediately.

None of the approved and established AU communities are "playing Mass". They are valid Priests that were either re-ordained (or ordained for the first time, rather) or, as is the case among many Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, were validly ordained via the Old Catholic Church prior to their conversion. 

Many of the parishes and individuals converting carry with them many of he same liturgical sensibilities as the church I linked above. The benefits of all of these proceedings should be self-evident.
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#13
This has been going on for quite some time, it's simply more common today.  There was a formerly Anglican parish in the diocese of Austin, and from what I understand they had converted back in the early 80s.
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#14
(10-05-2010, 09:50 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 09:08 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 09:02 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 08:56 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: Must they explicitly reject their heresy and embrace all of the teachings of the Catholic faith unequivocally?

Yes.

Where has the Church made this condition clear?

(I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I am genuinely interested in the conditions required by the Church.)

Anglicanorum Coetibus says in I.§5 that "The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the authoritative expression of the Catholic faith professed by members of the Ordinariate."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...us_en.html

Okay, that's the condition for which I was looking.

But isn't this the same catechism riddled with so many holes (holes which are presently being filled-in by Modernists), ambiguities, and incessant appeals to the Second Vatican Council to support it's expression of the Faith?--a council which has positively obscured the unequivocal teachings of the Catholic Church? And this is what they must accept in order to be considered in full communion with the Catholic Church?

Some Modernist heretics accept this catechism, too, and many of them are considered to be in "full communion" with Rome.
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#15
(10-06-2010, 12:50 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: But isn't this the same catechism riddled with so many holes (holes which are presently being filled-in by Modernists), ambiguities, and incessant appeals to the Second Vatican Council to support it's expression of the Faith?--a council which has positively obscured the unequivocal teachings of the Catholic Church? And this is what they must accept in order to be considered in full communion with the Catholic Church?

That's a fair concern, but it's also unreasonable to expect the present day "conciliar" Church to expect anything else. That's what the "conciliar" Church expects for converts of any stripe.


Miss_fluffy Wrote:There was a formerly Anglican parish in the diocese of Austin, and from what I understand they had converted back in the early 80s.

I'm not aware of any Anglican Use community in Austin. I'm a member of the first Anglican Use church ever, which was established in San Antonio in 1983. It was made up of a former Anglican minister and Episcopal converts, but they weren't part of a pre-existing Episcopal community.
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#16
(10-05-2010, 10:17 PM)Joshua Wrote: Wonderful news. I'm still waiting for St. Clements Episcopal Church in Philadelphia to cross the Tiber. It is, by far, one of the most Catholic of "Anglo-Catholic" parishes and with the Pre-55 Holy Week to boot. 'Puts many a TLM parish to shame, I dare say.

http://www.s-clements.org/index.php

Servus_Maria Wrote:This is great but it confuses me why these Anglican clergy continue to run parishes, offer Mass etc. once they've decided to convert to the Catholic Church. If their conversion is sincere then they should believe their orders to be invalid and stop playing Mass immediately.

None of the approved and established AU communities are "playing Mass". They are valid Priests that were either re-ordained (or ordained for the first time, rather) or, as is the case among many Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, were validly ordained via the Old Catholic Church prior to their conversion. 

Many of the parishes and individuals converting carry with them many of he same liturgical sensibilities as the church I linked above. The benefits of all of these proceedings should be self-evident.

If you'll re-read my post you'll see that I'm not talking about AU communities. I said "Anglican clergy", such as the minister mentioned in the original post, Anglican Use clergy are Catholic priests not Anglican ministers.
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#17
Servus_Maria Wrote:If you'll re-read my post you'll see that I'm not talking about AU communities. I said "Anglican clergy", such as the minister mentioned in the original post, Anglican Use clergy are Catholic priests not Anglican ministers.

Yeah ... ok. So is the minister mentioned in the OP playing Mass and acting as if his orders are valid? Do we know they are even invalid orders to begin with?
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#18
(10-06-2010, 02:47 AM)Joshua Wrote:
Servus_Maria Wrote:If you'll re-read my post you'll see that I'm not talking about AU communities. I said "Anglican clergy", such as the minister mentioned in the original post, Anglican Use clergy are Catholic priests not Anglican ministers.

Yeah ... ok. So is the minister mentioned in the OP playing Mass and acting as if his orders are valid? Do we know they are even invalid orders to begin with?

If you re-read my post for a third time you'll pick up that I was talking about all these Anglican clergy who are converting under the provisions of the new Apostolic Constitution. Yes, I do know that these Anglicans continue to offer Mass. I live in Australia, the first region of the TAC that voted to come over to Rome. I used to sing in the cathedral choir of the only Anglican diocese left in the country that hasn't accepted women priests and I currently live in a bit of a "biretta belt" (both Catholic and Anglican).

Leo XIII judged Anglican orders to be invalid. Even if they had somehow obtained an Old Catholic Bishop to ordain them if they've accepted the catechism of the Catholic Church, which they claim to have done once they petition for entry into the Church (actually all the TAC bishops signed it), then they acknowledge that to licitly distribute the sacraments they need to receive permission from the Holy Father and that without jurisdiction any Masses they offer are at best illicit and any weddings they celebrate are invalid.

Are you done nitpicking?
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#19
Servus_Maria Wrote:Leo XIII judged Anglican orders to be invalid.

I am aware of this. Thank you.
Servus_Maria Wrote:I was talking about all these Anglican clergy who are converting under the provisions of the new Apostolic Constitution. Yes, I do know that these Anglicans continue to offer Mass ...  to licitly distribute the sacraments they need to receive permission from the Holy Father and that without jurisdiction any Masses they offer are at best illicit and any weddings they celebrate are invalid.

Keep your wig on, Dundee. I get what you're saying. I was not aware that during the "transition period" they continued to administer "sacraments", wear clerical garb, etc. If this is in fact happening, then yes that should certainly cease until they are brought into communion and their orders are legitimized.
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#20
(10-06-2010, 03:25 AM)Joshua Wrote:
Servus_Maria Wrote:Leo XIII judged Anglican orders to be invalid.

I am aware of this. Thank you.
Servus_Maria Wrote:I was talking about all these Anglican clergy who are converting under the provisions of the new Apostolic Constitution. Yes, I do know that these Anglicans continue to offer Mass ...  to licitly distribute the sacraments they need to receive permission from the Holy Father and that without jurisdiction any Masses they offer are at best illicit and any weddings they celebrate are invalid.

Keep your wig on, Dundee. I get what you're saying. I was not aware that during the "transition period" they continued to administer "sacraments", wear clerical garb, etc. If this is in fact happening, then yes that should certainly cease until they are brought into communion and their orders are legitimized.

Perhaps one could argue they are not intending to simulate Mass, since they recognise the nullity of their orders. Instead, liturgical functions occurring in the 'transitional period' are simply that, public prayers and some ceremony [e.g.: surely catechumens organise public prayer meetings, e.g.: a gathering to pray the Rosary]. Though I grant, a high anglican liturgy presumably would look rather similar to a 'Mass' so it still seems to be living in a false world.

As regards sacraments they can validly administer, e.g.: Baptism, maybe there is an arrangement that during the transitional period they have authority to do this (on the provision they are soon to be regularised canonically).
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