The Mass as a Sacrifice and the Mass as a Meal
#11
I think I've found the answer.  Paul teaches pretty clearly in 1 Corinthians that the Eucharist is primarily the making-present of the Sacrifice and secondarily a meal.

I will post the details later!
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#12
(10-16-2010, 12:29 PM)Stubborn Wrote: CHAPTER II.
That the Sacrifice of the Mass is propitiatory both for the living and the dead.

The propitiation, get Gods favor for someone is different from the sacrifice. It means the ability to offer masses for the individuals or groups, living or dead.

A little history. Until the great epidemics the Church lived from the tithe. After the harvest (which was made in community) the goods were divided into ten parts, and one was given to the Church. The epidemic empties the villages, new owners stepped in, and their greed denied the previous tithe. The Church started to live from the offering for the masses, which was either in kind (land for regular gregorian series = 30 mass in row for a deceased) , or donations for single masses. The protestants rejected it as Simony, selling the holy things for money.

Propitiatory nature of the mass means that the above practice is legal and supported by the Church


940 ... Therefore, it is offered rightly according to the tradition of the apostles [can. 3], not only for the sins of the faithful living, for their punishments and other necessities, but also for the dead in Christ not yet fully purged.

950 Can. 3. If anyone says that the sacrifice of the Mass is only one of praise and thanksgiving, or that it is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the Cross, but not one of propitiation; or that it is of profit to him alone who receives; or that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities: let him be anathema

The mass has multiple ends, and we are Catholic we do not want to focus only one of them.
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#13
Actually, glgas, propitiation is closely related to sacrifice: it is the Father's pleasure at the Sacrifice that moves him to grant the Son's request to act as propitiation, is it not?

You seem to have posted a fair amount of material barely on-topic.

The Mass is first & foremost a sacrifice and couldn't even be a meal without the sacrifice: the meal is the eating of the Victim of the Sacrifice, as was done in the sacrificial element of all God's covenants.  Thus, the sacrificial aspect of the Mass is indeed the most critical.  I suspect you are subtly attacking that notion because you realize that the sacrificial element is downplayed in the new rite.  It is, and that is the main reason the new rite is inferior to the old.

When I get some time I will post the material from 1 Corinthians (and possibly Hebrews) that makes this clear.  (And I'm not talking about my own exegesis.)
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#14
(10-16-2010, 05:48 PM)The Catholic Thinker Wrote: Actually, glgas, propitiation is closely related to sacrifice: it is the Father's pleasure at the Sacrifice that moves him to grant the Son's request to act as propitiation, is it not?

You seem to have posted a fair amount of material barely on-topic.

The Mass is first & foremost a sacrifice and couldn't even be a meal without the sacrifice: the meal is the eating of the Victim of the Sacrifice, as was done in the sacrificial element of all God's covenants.  Thus, the sacrificial aspect of the Mass is indeed the most critical.  I suspect you are subtly attacking that notion because you realize that the sacrificial element is downplayed in the new rite.  It is, and that is the main reason the new rite is inferior to the old.

When I get some time I will post the material from 1 Corinthians (and possibly Hebrews) that makes this clear.  (And I'm not talking about my own exegesis.)

Every two things in this world are related and the closeness is subjective.

The Mass is

- gathering it was established in a supper, most of the verbs in the Tridentine rite are plural first person , the private Mass came in in the second millenium only, and was compromise

- learning, read John 15-17 the Eucharistic sermon, since St Justin it was associated with the reading of the scriptures, ant known rite has the learning/reading part

- offering : the Ordinary has 11 times the word offer

- remember : Hæc quotiescúmque fecéritis, in mei memóriam faciétis.

- expiating sacrifice: QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADÉTUR.  QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDÉTUR IN REMISSIÓNEM PECCATÓRUM.

- spiritual food: ACCÍPITE ET MANDUCÁTE EX HOC OMNES  ACCÍPITE ET BÍBITE EX EO OMNES:

- propitiation as the Church defined it

- mission of the Church  to the world

All this are connected in the Incarnated Second Divine person and this represents his presence among us. Each type is necessary for the others

Jesus as person is present this world through three aspects:

- the Word of the God, which was the only presence in the old testament

- the Church which is His bride and mystical body in the first millenium the major emphasis was in this presence, and this began emphasized again in the 20th Century (Pius XII, XXI Ecumenical Council). It is much more than the teaching authory.

- the presence in the Eucharist which started to be the Center in the second millenium

All three is equally important

- Note (edited) the New Mass emphasizes the gathering, the meal is only part of that; but through the words of the consecration the sacrifice and the memory of it is equally in the center.

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#15
All irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Mass is primarily a sacrifice (the Sacrifice): it is.  And this will be shown.
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#16
(10-16-2010, 06:57 PM)The Catholic Thinker Wrote: All irrelevant to the question of whether or not the Mass is primarily a sacrifice (the Sacrifice): it is.  And this will be shown.

Primarily is your category: how do you see that. As for Jesus the primary was the Incarnation (qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de celis)  which is represented in the Eucharist by the transsubstantiation. And if you think it over the sacrifice is for us, so our gathering is necessary.
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#17
Though not Pope statements these were approved by the Vatican they are the introductions to the Missal from 1957 and the one from 2000 that I own respectivley:

This from the introduction of a Missal I have from 1957:  Holy Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the new Testament. In which the Body and Blood of our savior Jesus Christ are offered to God under the appearance of bread and wine. Humanity's redemption was completed when Christ bowed his head on the cross. The Mass is not a mere symbol recalling the sacrifice of the cross. But is a sacrament of the sacrifice Christ made there for our sins. Through the seperate consecration of the bread and wine, Christ our Lord speaking through his Priests portrays the shedding of his blood and his dying on calvary and becomes really present under the bread and wine which shows him to be in a state of victimhood. Christ therefore presents unto his father the sacrifice he made on calvary once again for our benefit. Thus St Cyprian wrote in the 3rd century " The sacrifice which we offer God is the passion of our lord himself."

This from a 2000 Missal I have: In the words of the second Vatican council in the Constitution of the liturgy The Mass is an action of Christ and his body which is the Church it is a sacred action surpassing all others. Nothing can equal it. Hence the MASS IS A SACRED SIGN which brings the invisible reality of Christ to us in the worship of the Father. THE MASS WAS FIRST INSTITUTED AS A MEAL  at the last supper and became a living memorial of Christs sacrifice on the cross.

If these are slight shifts. I am Britney Spears.



By the way I showed the Vatican II Missal intro to a Lutheran friend and he said he had no problem going along with it.
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#18
(10-16-2010, 10:07 AM)The Catholic Thinker Wrote: We know that the Mass is validly seen as both a Sacrifice (the making-present of Calvary) and a meal.  I have heard the argument made that while the Novus Ordo rite does shift the emphasis slightly from sacrifice to meal, this is entirely valid because the Mass indeed is both (Eucharist does mean "thanksgiving", of course, after all).

Can someone point me to any references from councils or popes stating that actually the Mass is primarily the Sacrifice and that this aspect is more important than the meal aspect and should be emphasized as such?

The difficulty today is that the shift in emphasis has been much more dramatic than slightly, if not officially at least practically so, in both catechesis and in how the Mass is celebrated in many parishes.  Never the less, looking at Trent and at St. Pius X, it seems to me that the true and proper understanding, the mind of the Church, so to speak, is that both aspects of the Mass, spiritual succor and propitiatory sacrifice, are of equal, though distinct, importance.  The Catechism of Trent states “… that the faithful, beholding the sacred mysteries with their eyes, may also at the same time feed their souls with the contemplation of divine things.

Consulting these two august catechisms, I don’t think one can say the Mass is primarily the Sacrifice and that this aspect is more important than the meal aspect and should be emphasized as such.  The Church considers the spiritual nourishment aspect of sufficient importance, that both catechisms encourage daily communion, and the Church commands all Catholics, under pain of mortal sin, to take Holy Communion at least once a year.  There are numerous other admonishments that while at Mass, even when one is not disposed to receive corporally the Sacrament, one should perform an exercise of Spiritual Holy Communion.   

THE CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

The Sacrament of the Eucharist
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Eucharist.shtml

Quote:The Eucharist Signifies Three Things
It must, therefore, be diligently explained what the Sacrament of the Eucharist signifies, that the faithful, beholding the sacred mysteries with their eyes, may also at the same time feed their souls with the contemplation of divine things. Three things, then, are signified by this Sacrament. The first is the Passion of Christ our Lord, a thing past; for He Himself said: Do this for a commemoration of me, and the Apostle says: As often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come.
It is also significant of divine and heavenly grace, which is imparted at the present time by this Sacrament to nurture and preserve the soul. Just as in Baptism we are begotten unto newness of life and by Confirmation are strengthened to resist Satan and openly to profess the name of Christ, so by the Sacrament of the Eucharist are we nurtured and supported.
It is, thirdly, a foreshadowing of future eternal joy and glory, which, according to God's promises, we shall receive in our heavenly country.
These three things, then, which are clearly distinguished by their reference to past, present and future times, are so well represented by the Eucharistic mysteries that the whole Sacrament, though consisting of different species, signifies the three as if it referred to one thing only.

Distinction of Sacrament and Sacrifice
They (pastors) should teach, then, in the first place, that the Eucharist was instituted by Christ for two purposes: one, that it might be the heavenly food of our souls, enabling us to support and preserve spiritual life; and the other, that the Church might have a perpetual Sacrifice, by which our sins might be expiated, and our heavenly Father, oftentimes grievously offended by our crimes, might be turned away from wrath to mercy, from the severity of just chastisement to clemency. Of this thing we may observe a type and resemblance in the Paschal lamb, which was wont to be offered and eaten by the children of Israel as a sacrament and a sacrifice.

THE CATECHISM OF POPE SAINT PIUS X
http://www.basilica.org/pages/ebooks/Msgr.%20Hagan-The%20Catechism%20of%20Saint%20Pope%20Pius%20X.pdf (page 58)

Quote:28 Q. Why did Jesus Christ institute the Most Holy Eucharist? A. Jesus Christ instituted the Most Holy Eucharist for three principal reasons: (1) To be the Sacrifice of the New Law; (2) To be the food of our souls; (3) To be a perpetual memorial of His passion and death and a precious pledge both of His love for us and of eternal life.
29 Q. Why did Jesus Christ institute this sacrament under the appearances of bread and wine? A. Jesus Christ instituted this sacrament under the appearances of bread and wine, because, the Eucharist being intended to be our spiritual nourishment, it was therefore fitting that it should be given to us under the form of food and drink.
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#19
The Mass can in no way be considered a meal (unless you're anorexic). It is the literal re-presentation of the sacrifice of calvary. We eat Christ's flesh at Mass because that is the only way of our being incorporated into Him, and therefore partakers and beneficiaries of His sacrifice. Do you see the difference between that and dining?
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#20
glgas Wrote:And if you think it over the sacrifice is for us, so our gathering is necessary.


Explicit and unequivocal heresy. Only the priest's presence is necessary for the sacrifice to be enacted. Gigas, I'm beginning to think there's a devout Lutheran behind that screen.

Error: the gathering of the people is necessary for Mass.

Fact: the sacrifice of calvary is enaacted by the priest when he says Mass. Any person who wishes to be incorporated into Christ must be present at His sacrifice (Mass) and eat His flesh  and drink His blood (receive communion). But this person's presence, or the presence of any number of people, HAS NO BEARING on whether or not the sacrifice has been enacted.
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