Was Jesus perfect in his human deeds?
#11
(10-21-2010, 09:00 PM)SoCalLocal Wrote: I kinda doubt it. He was fully human - which means making mistakes. And the Bible says he was like us in all things except sin. Everyone makes arithmetic errors, for instance. And typos.
No. He is perfect. Mistakes by nature are imperfect. It is not Man's nature to make mistakes. It is Man's nature to have reason and free will. It is fallen man's nature to make mistakes.

Considering He knew all, making errors in the sciences would be impossible.
Quote:I just can't imagine a young Jesus helping Joseph in the shop and not having to learn "Measure twice, cut once" the hard way. If He did everything He ever tried perfectly the first time, He really wouldn't be human. He'd be Superman.
He is God. I can imagine Jesus measuring twice or verifying quality out of humility, but not out of necessity.

Quote: And people tend to shy away from people like that. ABp Sheen wrote about that in his autobiography, too. He was a terrible artist. He turned down free art lessons once because he figured that when his TV audience saw him draw on his blackboard and it looked like a kindergartener's work, they wouldn't be intimidated by his learning, they'd see he was just a regular guy.
Jesus had humility, not imperfection.

We are talking about a family headed by a man who was completely chaste, and when he found his wife was pregnant, and he never doubted her chastity, he did not need an explanation of how it happened once he was given the command to marry her. She was a virgin and chaste. She was pregnant. He did not need it explained.

We are talking about a family started by a woman who never sinned and was told by an angel she was to bear a child who would be able to save all.

We are talking about a Man who was God in the flesh. We are talking about a God who knows everything, yet loves us and gave us free will and reason so that we may choose to love Him and by happy with Him forever and who is willing to forgive us as long as we seek it.

Jesus did not make "mistakes".
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#12
(10-22-2010, 01:46 PM)Penelope Wrote: I've got a question. What about the idea that the laws of mathematics are an extension of God's nature? If Christ is God (which, of course, he is) and mathematics are an extension of God's nature, would it make sense that Christ could perform mathematical calculations perfectly? Perhaps that doesn't logically follow, I'm not sure. But it's a question that popped into my mind as I read this thread.

Our math is merely a mental representation/abstraction of reality. The symbols and conventions we use are not necessarily set in stone. We are limited by our expressions.

And, given that it is known there are unknowns in math, there are probably errors. Jesus could answer anything (people's sins, the future, people's intents, etc) and could use human language, so He could use math as far as it was useful. So in this regard, He could make "errors" because the errors were inherent in the math used (if it is the type we use), but the answer would be correct in the situation. So Jesus measuring for word work (I don't really know how measuring was done at the time) might reflect the errors in the measuring method used and the material inconsistency because He was human and as God allowing Himself to live as a Human, so perhaps material acts were not supernaturally done, but to say this was a mistake would be incorrect. It is humility. It would be like using Newtonian formulas for measuring gravity. It is incorrect, and we know it, but it is used in many situations because it works for the purpose. If the limitations of a means are known and accepted, then a choice to use those means would not mean that the results were in error, but that they were what was needed.
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#13
(10-22-2010, 02:50 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(10-21-2010, 09:00 PM)SoCalLocal Wrote: I kinda doubt it. He was fully human - which means making mistakes. And the Bible says he was like us in all things except sin. Everyone makes arithmetic errors, for instance. And typos.
No. He is perfect. Mistakes by nature are imperfect. It is not Man's nature to make mistakes. It is Man's nature to have reason and free will. It is fallen man's nature to make mistakes.

Considering He knew all, making errors in the sciences would be impossible., yet loves us and gave us free will and reason so that we may choose to love Him and by happy with Him forever and who is willing to forgive us as long as we seek it.

Jesus did not make "mistakes".
[/quote]Gosh, is there anything you're not an expert in?

By the way, being swayed by the serpent and eating the fruit was done by man before the fall. It was a mistake. How does that work?

Catechism says,
Quote:472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man" ,and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".
Emphasis added.

How can one increase in wisdom if one is already omniscient ?

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#14
These are very deep waters. It's probably best to consult St. Thomas:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4.htm
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#15
(10-22-2010, 03:09 PM)SoCalLocal Wrote: Gosh, is there anything you're not an expert in?

(10-22-2010, 03:09 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: I have studied Anglo-Saxon, but am not expert.
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#16
(10-22-2010, 03:09 PM)SoCalLocal Wrote: Gosh, is there anything you're not an expert in?
Yes, everything.

Quote:By the way, being swayed by the serpent and eating the fruit was done by man before the fall. It was a mistake. How does that work?
How does it work? Simple, God created Man with the ability to reason and with free will. God gave a commandment not to do something. A tempter presented a choice and a new thought. Man WILLED to be contrary to God. It was not a mistake...it was deliberate. It was so deliberate it has affected us all. To say there was a flaw in Man from the beginning is to say God did not create something perfect, ie, that God is not perfect.

Quote:How can one increase in wisdom if one is already omniscient ?
Luke 2:52 Wrote:And Jesus advanced in wisdom, and age, and grace with God and men.

Haydock Commentary Wrote:Ver. 52. Not that he was wiser at any future period of his life, than he was at the moment of his conception, but this is said, because he chose to manifest increasing signs of wisdom as he increased in years. --- In the same manner also he increased in grace, by displaying, as he advanced in age, the gifts of grace with which he was endowed; and by this excited men to the praise of God, from the consideration of favours God had bestowed upon him; and thus he conduced to the honour of God, and the salvation of men. (St. Gregory) --- The sun, always equally brilliant in itself, is said to increase in splendour, till it has reached its meridian brilliancy.

I wrote it elsewhere recently. Jesus was a perfect Man. That Jesus accepted the limitations of the human body during His ministry does not mean those limitations were absolute. It was a choice. That Jesus was an infant, a child and a man means that He had the nature of Man, but it was a choice. Mistakes are only possible because of imperfection and imperfection is only possible because of sin and sin is only possible because of choice.
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#17
(10-17-2010, 07:57 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: I've been thinking about this too.

Could Jesus do calculus?

Answers to questions like this (and the OP's) depend on what school of theology you follow.  Basically, you have the scholastics and the new, Conciliar theologians.  The first say that Christ had to be supreme in all things were fitting.  Thus, because of His supreme human intellect, He could deduce all things humanly possible to know via the things that He had limited contact with.  Therefore, yes, by the time He was a certain age He would have known calculus and been able to do calculus (do you do calculus?) better than any person before or after Him.

The new theologians say Jesus had ignorance on a lot of things.
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#18
(10-21-2010, 09:00 PM)SoCalLocal Wrote:
(10-17-2010, 06:13 PM)justlurking Wrote: If Jesus had played darts Would he always hit the exact center of the dartboard?

I begun to think about this after reading about the languages Jesus spoke, (aramaic, hebrew, and perhaps greek and some latin) I always thought Jesus knew all languages that have ever existed, exist or will exist since he is all powerful all knowing God.
I kinda doubt it. He was fully human - which means making mistakes. And the Bible says he was like us in all things except sin. Everyone makes arithmetic errors, for instance. And typos.

The scholastic theologians all reject this.  As sin is the disorder of the will so error is the disorder of the intellect.  Christ was fully man in all ways except in deficiency.  It is not fitting for the Teacher to be taught.  St. Thomas speaks of this in the section of the Summa dealing with the knowledge of Christ and it has been reinforced by the Neo-Scholastics.  As I mentioned before, there are basically only two schools of thought.  This one and the modern one.

With few exceptions, this wasn't the sort of thing the Patristics were concerned with.  They were too busy laying down foundational Christology.
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#19
(10-22-2010, 03:09 PM)SoCalLocal Wrote: How can one increase in wisdom if one is already omniscient ?

Christ's human mind came to knowledge via three different ways.  1) The Beatific Vision  2)  Infused Knowledge  3) Acquired Knowledge

  Christ had the beatific vision even while He was on earth.  He stood face to face in the presence of the Father always, even while here.  Insofar as He gazes upon the face of God, He knows all things in actuality.  Infused knowledge is knowledge given to man directly from God which man could not have come to on his own.  This is the sort of knowledge the prophets would receive.  Christ, being chief among all men, had this knowledge in fullness (again, all knowledge of things in actuality) and during every moment of His life.  Acquired knowledge is the kind of knowledge that we normally encounter.  It is human reason unaided directly by the divine.  Christ grew in this kind of knowledge only.  We know that there are certain things which a normal human mind cannot know at 4 that it can know at 40.  Christ always had all knowledge that was possible to be had by the unaided human mind in any given age He was in.  Therefore, speaking solely about acquired knowledge, Christ knew more things via His unaided human reason at age 20 than He would have at age 2.  In this alone did He grow in wisdom.  The Patristics and Scholastics reaffirm this.
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#20
(10-22-2010, 03:09 PM)SoCalLocal Wrote:
(10-22-2010, 02:50 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(10-21-2010, 09:00 PM)SoCalLocal Wrote: I kinda doubt it. He was fully human - which means making mistakes. And the Bible says he was like us in all things except sin. Everyone makes arithmetic errors, for instance. And typos.
No. He is perfect. Mistakes by nature are imperfect. It is not Man's nature to make mistakes. It is Man's nature to have reason and free will. It is fallen man's nature to make mistakes.

Considering He knew all, making errors in the sciences would be impossible., yet loves us and gave us free will and reason so that we may choose to love Him and by happy with Him forever and who is willing to forgive us as long as we seek it.

Jesus did not make "mistakes".
Gosh, is there anything you're not an expert in?

By the way, being swayed by the serpent and eating the fruit was done by man before the fall. It was a mistake. How does that work?

Catechism says,
Quote:472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man" ,and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".
Emphasis added.

How can one increase in wisdom if one is already omniscient ?


[/quote]

I tend to agree with the Church on this one, too. It is a mystery of Faith that Jesus has two Natures, one human, one Divine, each completely separate, yet each inseparably intertwined.
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