So, let's give it a try!
#51
(10-19-2010, 08:37 PM)Walty Wrote:
(10-19-2010, 08:26 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(10-19-2010, 08:17 PM)Walty Wrote: That is the man's job, but it's not his primary job, as if the Church endorsed some kind of utilitarianism or functionalism.  His primary job is to be a spiritual leader of the family.

And I am serious that I would allow my daughter to marry a poor man so long as it wasn't going to endanger her health or anything extreme like that.  There's a difference between laziness and being poor.  One is a vice, the other blessed by the Lord.

It's not his primary job? So he can just disregard it? I think you're wrong. If a man can't provide for a family, he shouldn't get married. This is how it always was. Marriage comes with responsibility.

I suppose you mean endangering her health as in not having health insurance when a baby is born....or, like in the case of a friend of a mine, parents who don't take their kids to the doctor for a check-up so one of them grows up with scoliosis without anyone knowing until it's too late to do anything about it. She'll have a crooked back for the rest of her life, but hey, she'll still get to heaven (possibly) so who cares?

When the father of a family neglects his duties to provide, it hurts those whom it is his primary duty to protect and care for. This is not something minor or optional. You should check your facts.

I said there's a difference between laziness and poverty.  As long as he is doing what he can to take care of his duties as a husband and father what more can you ask?

So do you have some sort of minimal income in mind for guys who you'll let date your daughters?  Will you turn away a good Catholic guy who your daughter loved simply because he makes only $30,000 a year?  What if he's working his arse off and 30k is the best he can do?

That's a lot different from what Vetus was saying...that's its perfectly alright to live off his wife's money. What type of bum would want to sit by idly and not support his family? How can you sit by not working when you can make something for yourself and family?

And what do you mean by "working your arse off?" 40 hours? 80 hours?
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#52
(10-19-2010, 09:46 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(10-19-2010, 09:44 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: My "statements deserve condemnation" because they go against your perceived notions of marriage. Nothing I said goes against Church teaching so don't go over the top. It's perfectly possible and legitimate for a man to look for and marry a rich woman.

I'm sorry you're not rich. You can't really blame me for having standards.

The Church teaches that the husband must provide for his family. Again, I didn't make this up, nor is it my "perceived notion of marriage."

I'm sorry I'm not rich, too. Probably for different reasons, though.

Yep. Someone's got to bring in the money for the cooking / cleaning.

I'm guessing though that Vetus is being sarcastic...no man can be that much of a slacker.
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#53
Iolanthe, I think the menfolks are having you on.

I hope so, because I'm torn between two positions I could take with equal earnestness otherwise: The justness of Iolanthe's claim that a man should be able to support his family adequately, on the one hand, and the insinuation that poor men have no right to marry on the other.
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#54
(10-20-2010, 05:59 AM)Satori Wrote: Iolanthe, I think the menfolks are having you on.

I'm not so sure. "Half in jest and whole in earnest" in VO's case. I guess I just don't find it funny.

Quote:I hope so, because I'm torn between two positions I could take with equal earnestness otherwise: The justness of Iolanthe's claim that a man should be able to support his family adequately, on the one hand, and the insinuation that poor men have no right to marry on the other.

I don't know what I think, either, about poor people having no right to marry. But most traditional Catholics are somehwere in the middle class and often college-educated; I don't see how opting out of supporting a family and living in poverty is justifiable in any way. Or stating "I want to marry rich and take your money," which obviously is never going to happen, anyway.
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#55
(10-19-2010, 09:46 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: The Church teaches that the husband must provide for his family. Again, I didn't make this up, nor is it my "perceived notion of marriage."

I never stated otherwise, you keep beating a dead horse.

In my ideal scenario, the bride's money and estates would become legally mine (the negotiated dowry) or united with my already existing proprieties and, therefore, I would be able to support the family through that income. I understand that there aren't many women available that would meet my standards, including you, but I guess that is a cross I'll have to bear.

Patience is a virtue, after all.

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#56
(10-20-2010, 09:32 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-19-2010, 09:46 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: The Church teaches that the husband must provide for his family. Again, I didn't make this up, nor is it my "perceived notion of marriage."

I never stated otherwise, you keep beating a dead horse.

In my ideal scenario, the bride's money and estates would become legally mine (the negotiated dowry) or united with my already existing proprieties and, therefore, I would be able to support the family through that income. I understand that there aren't many women available that would meet my standards, including you, but I guess that is a cross I'll have to bear.

Patience is a virtue, after all.

I didn't know crosses came that small.

Lack of money is the biggest worry in most marriages, and by eliminating this from the beginning by marrying a rich wife, Vetus Ordo shows he's a man of great prudence.
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#57
(10-20-2010, 09:45 AM)PeterII Wrote:
(10-20-2010, 09:32 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-19-2010, 09:46 PM)Iolanthe Wrote: The Church teaches that the husband must provide for his family. Again, I didn't make this up, nor is it my "perceived notion of marriage."

I never stated otherwise, you keep beating a dead horse.

In my ideal scenario, the bride's money and estates would become legally mine (the negotiated dowry) or united with my already existing proprieties and, therefore, I would be able to support the family through that income. I understand that there aren't many women available that would meet my standards, including you, but I guess that is a cross I'll have to bear.

Patience is a virtue, after all.

I didn't know crosses came that small.

Lack of money is the biggest worry in most marriages, and by eliminating this from the beginning by marrying a rich wife, Vetus Ordo shows he's a man of great prudence.

Now, there's a man who understands the way of things. Thank you for your support, Peter.
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#58
(10-20-2010, 09:45 AM)PeterII Wrote: Lack of money is the biggest worry in most marriages, and by eliminating this from the beginning by marrying a rich wife, Vetus Ordo shows he's a man of great prudence.

That's interesting. I thought the biggest worry in most marriages is what the wife is supposed to do when she figures out she married an idiot.
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#59
(10-20-2010, 10:15 AM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(10-20-2010, 09:45 AM)PeterII Wrote: Lack of money is the biggest worry in most marriages, and by eliminating this from the beginning by marrying a rich wife, Vetus Ordo shows he's a man of great prudence.

That's interesting. I thought the biggest worry in most marriages is what the wife is supposed to do when she figures out she married an idiot.

Ah, such gloomy view of marriage. No wonder you act so bitter.
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#60
(10-20-2010, 10:38 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(10-20-2010, 10:15 AM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(10-20-2010, 09:45 AM)PeterII Wrote: Lack of money is the biggest worry in most marriages, and by eliminating this from the beginning by marrying a rich wife, Vetus Ordo shows he's a man of great prudence.

That's interesting. I thought the biggest worry in most marriages is what the wife is supposed to do when she figures out she married an idiot.

Ah, such gloomy view of marriage. No wonder you act so bitter.

I'm not bitter. I'm quite happy. I just think free-loading men are disgusting.
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