Evolution
#52
(10-29-2010, 08:09 AM)Rosarium Wrote: God did not create chaos.

I suppose this requires us to define objective chaos:

Catholic Encyclopedia: Evil Wrote:Metaphysical evil is the limitation by one another of various component parts of the natural world. Through this mutual limitation natural objects are for the most part prevented from attaining to their full or ideal perfection, whether by the constant pressure of physical condition, or by sudden catastrophes. Thus, animal and vegetable organisms are variously influenced by climate and other natural causes; predatory animals depend for their existence on the destruction of life; nature is subject to storms and convulsions, and its order depends on a system of perpetual decay and renewal due to the interaction of its constituent parts. If animals suffering is excluded, no pain of any kind is caused by the inevitable limitations of nature; and they can only be called evil by analogy, and in a sense quite different from that in which the term is applied to human experience. Clarke, moreover, has aptly remarked (Correspondence with Leibniz, letter ii) that the apparent disorder of nature is really no disorder, since it is part of a definite scheme, and precisely fulfills the intention of the Creator; it may therefore be counted as a relative perfection rather than an imperfection. It is, in fact, only by a transference to irrational objects of the subjective ideals and aspirations of human intelligence, that the "evil of nature" can be called evil in any sense but a merely analogous one. The nature and degree of pain in lower animals is very obscure, and in the necessary absence of data it is difficult to say whether it should rightly be classed with the merely formal evil which belongs to inanimate objects, or with the suffering of human beings. The latter view was generally held in ancient times, and may perhaps he referred to the anthropomorphic tendency of primitive minds which appears in the doctrine of metempsychosis. Thus it has often been supposed that animal suffering, together with many of the imperfections of inanimate nature, was due to the fall of man, with whose welfare, as the chief part of creation, were bound up the fortunes of the rest (see Theoph. Antioch., Ad Autolyc., II; cf. Genesis 3 and 1 Corinthians 9). The opposite view is taken by St. Thomas (I, Q. xcvi, a. 1,2). Descartes supposed that animals were merely machines, without sensation or consciousness; he was closely followed by Malebranche and Cartesians generally. Leibniz grants sensation to animals, but considers that mere sense-perception, unaccompanied by reflexion, cannot cause either pain or pleasure; in any case he holds the pain and pleasure of animals to be parable in degree to those resulting from reflex action in man (see also Maher, Psychology, Supp't. A, London, 1903).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

Emphasis added.

Following the cite from the Summa, I found this opinion of S. Thomas Aquinas, which seems probable:

Summa I, Q. xcvi, a. 1 Wrote:Reply to Objection 2. In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state, have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede's gloss on Genesis 1:30, say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been excepted from the mastership of man: as neither at present are they for that reason excepted from the mastership of God, Whose Providence has ordained all this. Of this Providence man would have been the executor, as appears even now in regard to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1096.htm
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Messages In This Thread
Evolution - by mirarivos - 10-21-2010, 10:21 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-21-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-21-2010, 09:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-21-2010, 09:29 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-21-2010, 09:36 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-21-2010, 09:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-22-2010, 10:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-22-2010, 10:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 12:27 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 04:33 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2010, 07:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:41 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:52 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:20 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 12:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 12:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 05:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 07:29 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-23-2010, 11:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-24-2010, 08:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-25-2010, 09:10 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by ggreg - 10-26-2010, 06:18 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-26-2010, 08:15 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-26-2010, 09:27 AM
Re: Evolution - by SaintSebastian - 10-26-2010, 10:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by SaintSebastian - 10-26-2010, 11:04 AM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 10-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-28-2010, 09:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 09:39 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-28-2010, 09:50 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 10:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-28-2010, 10:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 10:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-29-2010, 08:09 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-29-2010, 03:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-29-2010, 05:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-29-2010, 08:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-29-2010, 09:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 06:14 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 08:48 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:21 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 09:30 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 09:42 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-30-2010, 09:45 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:55 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 10:12 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-30-2010, 11:45 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 12:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 04:41 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 04:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 04:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 05:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 07:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:31 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 06:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 06:44 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-31-2010, 08:56 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 09:39 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-31-2010, 10:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:43 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-31-2010, 01:27 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 02:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 05:34 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-31-2010, 05:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-31-2010, 05:36 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 05:50 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-01-2010, 05:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 11:38 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-02-2010, 03:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 11-02-2010, 07:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 11-02-2010, 08:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-02-2010, 09:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 11-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 01:05 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 11-03-2010, 08:00 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 11-03-2010, 03:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 04:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-03-2010, 06:04 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-03-2010, 08:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 11-05-2010, 05:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by Mixolydian - 11-20-2010, 01:06 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-20-2010, 11:06 PM
Re: Evolution - by Mixolydian - 11-21-2010, 03:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 11-30-2010, 09:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 11-30-2010, 09:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-01-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-01-2010, 06:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 12-01-2010, 09:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 12-22-2010, 07:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-22-2010, 07:27 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-22-2010, 08:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-22-2010, 10:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 12-22-2010, 10:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-23-2010, 09:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-23-2010, 09:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-23-2010, 10:53 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-23-2010, 10:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by dnu - 12-24-2010, 01:38 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-24-2010, 01:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by sheep101 - 12-24-2010, 06:01 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 12-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-25-2010, 07:24 AM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-26-2010, 08:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by faith3faith - 12-26-2010, 10:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-26-2010, 11:07 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 12-26-2010, 06:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-27-2010, 07:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by icecream - 12-27-2010, 07:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-27-2010, 03:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-28-2010, 03:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-28-2010, 06:04 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by icecream - 12-28-2010, 06:31 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-28-2010, 06:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-28-2010, 06:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-28-2010, 10:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 10:58 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:15 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:17 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-29-2010, 07:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-29-2010, 07:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-29-2010, 01:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by faith3faith - 12-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-29-2010, 03:20 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 12-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-29-2010, 04:49 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-29-2010, 11:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-30-2010, 12:08 AM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-30-2010, 01:56 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 07:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 03:54 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-30-2010, 04:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 05:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 12-30-2010, 07:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 07:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 12:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 12-31-2010, 05:06 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-31-2010, 08:01 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 08:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 09:07 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 08:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 08:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 08:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 08:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by violet - 12-31-2010, 08:57 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by violet - 12-31-2010, 09:20 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 09:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 09:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 07:59 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 01-01-2011, 08:42 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 09:15 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 01-01-2011, 12:51 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 02:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by justlurking - 01-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 06:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by Christus Imperat - 01-01-2011, 07:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 01-02-2011, 04:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-02-2011, 06:35 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-02-2011, 06:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by cathkath - 01-02-2011, 07:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by CrusaderKing - 01-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 01-02-2011, 11:53 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 01-03-2011, 03:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-04-2011, 05:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 01-04-2011, 11:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-05-2011, 12:57 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-06-2011, 12:49 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 01-06-2011, 01:37 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-06-2011, 01:46 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 01-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Re: Evolution - by cherylfoster - 01-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 01-16-2011, 03:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by Metatron - 01-19-2011, 04:47 AM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 02-19-2011, 02:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-04-2011, 06:11 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 06:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 06:24 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 06:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 06:38 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 07:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 08:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by twinc - 04-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by twinc - 04-05-2011, 01:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by catholicSD - 04-05-2011, 05:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by Bminor Mass - 04-09-2011, 08:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by mikemac - 04-15-2011, 03:12 AM
Re: Evolution - by ggreg - 04-15-2011, 09:59 AM
Re: Evolution - by Bminor Mass - 04-16-2011, 11:31 AM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-21-2011, 11:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by UnamSanctam - 04-21-2011, 12:00 PM



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